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TM2
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Posted: Thu Jun 17th, 2010 03:55 pm |
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Andrew, we're both guests here in somebody else's forum, and I'm not interested in hijacking their thread by continuing the discussion. Could I ask one quick question, though? You've told us a lot about Omid Mankoo = Sage Hope. I'm always more interested in hearing people share their own stories. What can you say about Andrew Wright's journey from addiction to freedom? A better use of this forum might be to start your own thread someplace other than in the wives' section and to share about yourself, not about somebody else.
Or, as I strongly suspect, are you and Omid/Sage the same person?
If you're not Omid Mankoo, then we can certainly continue to talk about recovery in one of the other parts of this forum. We're not going to agree about Omid, but disagreeing about one book doesn't have to come between us. If you are Omid, then I'm not interested in further conversation until you can conduct it honestly. You see, rigorous honesty is a core principle of addiction recovery. It's a sine qua non for sustained sobriety. It's hard for me to see that anyone who is knowingly misrepresenting himself has anything to offer an addict seeking to recover.
To the wives whose forum this is, my apologies for provoking this distraction. I won't post further replies here, and I invite Andrew to move any further comments to a separate thread, maybe in General Discussion.
Peace,
Tim M.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Thu Jun 17th, 2010 04:04 pm |
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Thank you, Tim. Your thoughtful posts are always welcome.
My best, DW
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My best, Devastated Wife
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allalone
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Posted: Wed Jun 30th, 2010 05:52 pm |
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Hi Everyone,
It's been a while since I last posted. I've been taking some time to get my head cleared. My husband and I have been on this roller coaster of promises, lies and confrontations for the longest time. Even despite setting firm boundaries that we both agreed upon, the lies continue.
I've gotten fed up with the "words" and now for some reason, only see the "actions". Situations have occurred in the past few weeks where I should have been the main focus. True to form, I was always an afterthought. When standing up for myself, I was told how I was being selfish and should be thinking of others. While the details of these "situations" are long and tedious, believe me, I was anything else but selfish.
The emotional turmoil I've been experiencing is just not right. The complete despair, uncontrollable crying and total disappointment have turned me into an unrecognizable person and to say the least, not a great mom. I've seen how my emotional turmoil has affected the kids. I'm just not available for them. In some respects, I've turned into my husband.
I was the one who hit rock bottom a couple of weeks ago. I wrestled with my decision for the longest time and finally decided he had to leave. We sat at our kitchen table with our children and told them Dad was moving out. I know I've hurt my children and I resent my husband for putting me in a position where I felt there was no other choice.
The very next day, as a family, we all went looking for apartments for him to rent. I wanted the kids to see that this was not going to be a hostile arrangement. More importantly, my husband had to realize that this was no idle threat. We allowed a week of preparation to give the kids an opportunity to adjust to the idea. He moved out 5 days ago.
He lives close by and sees the kids when everyone's schedule will allow. We still talk but our conversations are very "polite" and we're definitely walking on eggshells. We discussed that very thing yesterday and his response was "I don't know what I'm supposed to do. You kicked me out. I resent you for that". I just find it amazing that he resents "ME"! It was yet again, another reminder of how he is focused on himself and only himself. And that he doesn't see that!
The beauty of that conversation was that I was immediately able to recognize the his selfishness and end the conversation. I didn't try to reason with him, I didn't try to explain my position, I didn't try to point out where he was wrong. I didn't waste my breathe. I didn't fool myself into thinking I got through to him. And that means, I won't be disappointed. That in itself, is progress for me!
All these months, I've been reading and reading, talking and talking, learning and learning. All with the hope and goal of a fulfilling future. It wasn't wasted time since I learned a lot about BOTH of us. The problem was that I was spending much, much more time than he was. You can't build a house alone, and that's just what I was. So after the last box of his belongings was loaded into the car, I began to settle into MY room. All the SA books, all the s-anon books, all the marriage books have been put away and now the only thing at the bedside is a Sudoku! I need a break and I'm taking it.
I had many conversations with my therapist before asking him to leave. We talked of the boundaries that had been set and how they were broken. We talked about the agreed consequences of breaking those boundaries. And we talked about my reluctance to follow through. All these months, she kept saying "I can't make that decision for you". She was right. I had to get to MY rock bottom before I could follow through. The decision was my own. There is a sense of peace, calm and quiet right now. It's refreshing!
I don't know what tomorrow will bring. But right now I feel as if I'm actually practicing what I've "intellectually" spoken of....taking it one day at a time. And today is a good day. The weather is gorgeous and there are no tasks on the calendar. My plan is to hang out with the kids, make a great dinner and just do whatever we feel like.
Thanks for listening! My prayers and blessing for us all!
AllAlone
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Wed Jun 30th, 2010 07:37 pm |
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Dear Allalone,
He resents you? HE resents YOU? He resents you for kicking him out? Oh, that's rich.
Congratulations for reaching the decision. May you find peace.
My best, DW
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My best, Devastated Wife
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truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Jun 30th, 2010 08:52 pm |
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Hi AllAlone,
I'm sorry that things are not going better, but applaud you for setting and sticking to your boundaries.
I pray that he might still choose to seek freedom from his sin.
TruthSeeker
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allalone
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Posted: Sat Jul 17th, 2010 05:17 pm |
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Hi All,
I haven't posted in some time, but I have been reading all your posts and am grateful that this forum is here for me to learn through your experiences.
My husband has been out of our home for 3 weeks. He has an apartment nearby and is able to see the kids whenever he or they want. Sometimes I think his relationship with them is actually better. Now it's just him and the kids a lot of the time.
We have had some serious heart to heart conversations lately regarding his childhood sexual abuse and the family dynamics that were present at the time. With his mind, he thinks like an adult....knowing it wasn't his fault. With his heart, he is still a victim...a bad person who is unworthy of love. In a recent conversation with our therapist she stated that it's as if he is trying to sabotage himself. A self fulfilling prophecy of sorts. "Since my wife kicked me out, it proves that I don't deserve love". He is so deep in his own "muck" that it's heartbreaking.
The saddest part is that while he talks with his brain, he acts with his hearts true feelings. Nothing has changed by him moving out other than his address. He still acts out, visits porn shops, lies about attending meetings and lies about just everything else. We are approaching the end of the road.
Evidently, he is not able to handle this with all the resources that are available to him now. About the only thing left for me to do is to insist that he participate in an inpatient sexual addiction recovery program. While I can insist, I know he must make the final decision.
I have arranged with our therapist a meeting to discuss this very issue with my husband next week. I don't imagine he will receive my suggestion with open arms but I can no longer endure the lies, deceit and manipulation.
I'm also feeling that I am at the point where our children need to be told. And that, my friends, is the main reason for this post. I need guidance and suggestions from all of you. I have talked with my therapist and am reading all I can. My children are ages 20, 17 and 14. Not babies to say the least, but they are still my babies. I really don't know which way to go with this. Here are some of my thoughts.
Arguments for telling them:
- I don't think it's fair that they are being lied to all the time
- These are secrets that will be more painful when discovered.
- They will ultimately discover these secrets
- They need to know we are all human and that everyone has "issues"
- It's not fair that my husband can continue his double life at our expense
- My husband will now have to be accountable to his children
Arguments for NOT telling them:
- By not telling them, is it wrong to want them to have a life free from this chaos?
- We were all in the dark for 22 years and it hasn't impacted them (keep in mind that he has been a good father-spending time with them, being involved. I know he could have been better, but as a father, he's been pretty good)
- Telling them will force me into action. I cannot let them know and do nothing. They need to see that this is wrong and they no one should have to live with these circumstances. This may ultimately mean divorce, selling our home, etc.
- They will have to deal with very adult issues.
- This will destroy their image of their father.
- Is it right for a mother to break her children's hearts?
- THIS WILL BREAK MY HEART!
So, I am asking for help. Should I tell them? What should I tell them? I am desperate for your opinions and the reasons for those opinions.
Let me thank you all in advance for your help. This forum has been very helpful over the last several months.
All Alone
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truthseeker
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Posted: Sat Jul 17th, 2010 07:08 pm |
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Hi Allalone,
Your counselor is probably a great soundingboard for these questions.
My thoughts are pretty theoretical, as my husband and I worked through things, and only our two younger kids, as far as I know, know that there was an issue with porn, though not the details. So with that disclaimer...
"I don't think it's fair that they are being lied to all the time"
Have either of you lied to them, or just been vague about the truth, i.e. "Mom and Dad have some things we are trying to work out."
"These are secrets that will be more painful when discovered."
You are right. They will be painful at any time. Waiting will not make them less painful. If he does agree to a residential program, though, you may wish to evaluate the results for a time after his return. If he does experience freedom, and you are able to stay together, you can simply say that things were able to be worked out.
"They will ultimately discover these secrets"
Maybe, or maybe not. If he continues acting out, you're right.
"They need to know we are all human and that everyone has "issues""
Do they not already know that?
"It's not fair that my husband can continue his double life at our expense"
Yes, if he persists, they will need to be told something, even if it is as broad as Dad is struggling with addiction, and I cannot permit addictive behavior in our home."
"My husband will now have to be accountable to his children"
Accountable? He would have to face them and own responsibility for the disruption of family life, if that's what you are referring to.
"By not telling them, is it wrong to want them to have a life free from this chaos?"
We all want to protect our kids from the uglier parts of the world, but eventually that is no longer possible.
"We were all in the dark for 22 years and it hasn't impacted them (keep in mind that he has been a good father-spending time with them, being involved. I know he could have been better, but as a father, he's been pretty good)"
The light is impacting all of you now.
"Telling them will force me into action. I cannot let them know and do nothing. They need to see that this is wrong and they no one should have to live with these circumstances. This may ultimately mean divorce, selling our home, etc."
Yes, it will. That's why the timing is important--only when you are firmly convinced about the actions to take.
"They will have to deal with very adult issues."
They will have to do so for the rest of their lives. With the youngest being fourteen, they are at the point where they will be dealing with other adult issues, if not this one. Unfortunately, our kids are always more knowledgeable than we give them credit for.
"This will destroy their image of their father."
It will alter it, to be sure, and the first reactions may be volatile, but hopefully they will mostly continue to relate to him as the father they love. Yes, if divorce comes, and moving is necessary, there will be anger about the changes they have to deal with, but there would be anger even if they do not know what is causing the divorce.
"Is it right for a mother to break her children's hearts?
THIS WILL BREAK MY HEART!"
It is your husband who has broken all of your hearts, whether or not everyone has been informed yet.
Praying for you...
TruthSeeker
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TM2
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Posted: Sat Jul 17th, 2010 09:31 pm |
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My situation is only partly relevant to your question. I'm the addict in the family, I'm in recovery, and we've stayed together. In case it helps, though, let me talk about why I've shared my story with my kids. (Truth in advertising: at this stage, my two older children know that I'm in recovery for sex addiction. The two younger ones know only that I go to counseling and some sort of support group meetings for things having to do with my feelings and with my anger toward them.)
To my mind, the central reason my kids need to know about my addiction is to protect themselves.
Addictions tend to run in families. Whether that's for genetic reasons or because the family dysfunctions of our youth predispose us to create similarly dysfunctional families isn't clear to me, but I know that my meetings are full of children of alcoholics and other addicts.
My kids are therefore significantly more likely than the general population to develop addictions of their own or to end up married to addicts. In order to keep themselves safe, they need to know that, just as they need to know that my heart disease places them at risk. My psychological history is their psychological history, and they have a right to know it in order to understand themselves and to keep themselves safe. My story isn't mine to hide; it's also their story.
All this is especially true because I haven't been a father without flaws. I've done many good things with my kids, but I've also neglected them for a combination of work and porn, and I've abused them with outbursts of anger toward them or others that have been a part of my addictive cycle. That's something I suspect they'll be unpacking for a long time, and something that has led in them to issues of anxiety and depression and perfectionism. Understanding and validating themselves requires that they understand the family in which they grew up.
Further, I think that it's really important that we learn better as a family to communicate feelings and who we really are. One piece of honest sharing is not continuing to cover up the elephant in the room.
That's why I think that it isn't a question - my kids need to know.
As I've said, of course, my situation differs from yours in significant ways. Take what's useful, and leave the rest.
Tim M.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sat Jul 17th, 2010 10:10 pm |
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Dear Allalone,
I have one daughter who just turned 22 and a son who will be 20 in a few days. My daughter knows all, my son knows some.
A couple of weeks ago, my husband was unbelievably thoughtless, came home late, his route home took him past NUMEROUS porn shops, he was going to be away on a business trip the next week, and we had guests waiting for his arrival so that we could have dinner...........
I LOST IT. I was absolutely convinced he was at a porn shop, shopping for his week away from me. He swears he wasn't, but I don't trust him as far as I could throw him.
As a result of the screaming that ensued, my daughter knows everything. It was a "vocabulary increasing event." My husband admitted to her that he was addicted to pornography and that we were going to marriage counseling as a result. She has only known for two weeks. I told her in no uncertain terms that "no self-respecting woman would tolerate this and the sum total of my frustration with your father overwhelmed my coping mechanisms so I exploded." I told her that she could ask me anything at any time and I would tell her what I know. I told here there would not be any more secrets in the family.
My son was not present for the screaming session, so he does not know the whole story, even though I offered to tell him. He simply knows that we are going to marriage counseling to work through some issues.
My daughter was crushed, but the tension in the house seems to be at a lower level that before. She now knows the score and it doesn't seem to have impacted her relationship with her father much, if at all. She does seem much more patient with me, now. She was being rather snippy with me.......no more. She seems to now understand why I have zero patience for his nonsense.
I think honesty is the best policy.........at an age appropriate level.
My best, DW
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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allalone
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Posted: Fri Jul 23rd, 2010 04:13 pm |
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UPDATE!
My husband agreed to more intensive treatment for his sex addiction problem. Our area, however, does not have inpatient residential facilities for sex addiction. We have found a hospital program that allows for intensive outpatient therapy, 4 days a week, 3 hours per day. It's 15 minutes from his job and his boss has been very supportive (Divine intervention?) Coupled with weekly therapist meetings, weekly SA meetings and regular visits to his psychiatrist, I believe my husband now has every available resource to him.
He has attended 3 of those outpatient therapy sessions and seems to be enjoying them. He says he's learning something new about himself all the time. They are not warm and fuzzy meetings and the group leader as well as the members are all quick to point out the realities of his situation. In his words...."you're there to do the work and they expect you to do it"....."no one lets you off the hook".
When I first talked to him about the need for more treatment and that I was going to tell the kids regardless of his decision, he was very angry. We haven't told the kids yet but he seems to be warming up to the idea. Ideally, I would like the information to come from him. I think that would be better for the kids.
The other night he apologized to the kids for an outburst that happened last year. He explained that he was fixated on a project that had to be "PERFECT" because that was the only way he could ever win his own father's favor. He went on to praise and thank them for the great job they did!
I still feel they need to be told and we are working with our therapist for the "right words". He still lives outside the home and will continue to do so until I see some "real" change. I'm not naive enough to think that this will happen overnight. He has been living with this addiction for a great many years.
I'm walking cautiously!
Thanks to all
allalone
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allalone
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Posted: Fri Sep 3rd, 2010 03:19 pm |
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I'm at a crossroads with making a decision about my marriage. I have a question for the SA members....after 8 months of therapy, shouldn't the "acting out" have stopped? I realize my husband has a 40 year history dealing with this. If there hasn't been a change by now, will I ever see one?
Allalone
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TM2
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Posted: Sat Sep 4th, 2010 02:10 pm |
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I'm not quite sure how to answer a question of "should." Should the acting out have stopped? Sure. In fact, it should never have begun.
That's probably not answering the real question, though. I'm guessing the real question is twofold - how long does it typically take addicts to get sober, and how long can you, and should you, wait and hope for a change?
Unfortunately, the experience of people that I know suggests that how long it takes to get and stay sober is all over the map. There are people who make a decision and never act out again. Most of the people I know like that are folks who have been caught by the law and have reacted to the shock of being jailed by really hitting bottom. At the other extreme, I know people who have faithfully attended meetings for 10 years, reading and doing workbooks and thinking hard about their situations, and who still act out a lot. They are good and gentle and Christian folks who are trying thoughtfully, but there's some element of surrender they haven't yet found. I know people who took several years to find a way to make it work, and who then did that and who have now been sober for a decade. I know people who got sober within a first year, stayed sober for 2 or 3 or 8 years, and then began slipping again, finding themselves stuck in a low level of acting out every few months. (I was one of these people, and hope I have found the next stage of laying aside those nightmarish mini-relapses.) I know people who have relapsed more forcefully. So we're all over the place.
In a way, of course, I'm guessing it's those folks who take 5 years to pull it together and then become icons of recovery and sobriety who are the problem for you. One of the most recovered people I know is just like that. He'll say calmly that he's been in the program for 13 years and has been sober for 8, and will observe that what this means is that the program works, but that it can take a long time. Today, he's a paradigm of where recovery can take us, but he took years to find a way to make it work.
So how long should you wait, and when do you quit? I don't have an answer to that. When have you had enough? When is the continuing damage to your kids from living with an active addict - which for my kids was real and substantial - greater than the hurt from divorce? When does the certainty of more pain for you outweigh the hope of possible future release from suffering for him? I don't think anybody else can answer those questions. They have to come from you, working with your counselor, who knows you and the situation (how hard he's working, whether things are improving, perhaps if there's a bottom he's approaching) better than we can. You have to do what's right for you.
Wish I had a better and clearer answer.
Tim M.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sat Sep 4th, 2010 02:39 pm |
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Dear AllAlone,
If throwing him out of the house did not prompt a change in his behavior, I question if anything will.
Of course, as Tim cogently points out, there are exceptions to that. I gave myself and the addict in my life two years. At this point, I'd have to say my addict is doing better than I am. The paradox is at work......the addict is freed from the secret life and is in recovery..........and the wife's hell has just begun.
I understand the indecision---really I do. Tim correctly points out that the damage being inflicted on the kids is a consideration. Let me raise another one: You've already spent 20+ years of your life with an addict. Do you want to spend the next 20 years of your life with an addict? One who is not in active recovery? If he never recovers, will you go to your grave an angry and bitter woman? Can you set a date certain......a date by which he must SHOW you that he is in active recovery or you will divorce him? Pick a reasonable time frame.........two years struck me as reasonable. Some of the best advice I received from a friend: Don't run to divorce court. Take a year and let the dust settle. Those were/are wise words.
My best, DW
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My best, Devastated Wife
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allalone
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Posted: Sat Sep 4th, 2010 03:06 pm |
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Thank you all for your words of wisdom. If I am to be completely honest with myself, I would have to say I knew the answers before I asked the questions. I just keep hoping that someone will tell me that it will be all right and by such and such a date, everything will be fine. Why can't there be someone out there with a crystal ball?
It is just so painful. Every lie and every episode of "acting out" is like a knife in my back. I keep reliving the discovery over and over again. The saddest part of all this is that his therapists think he's making great strides in recovery considering how long he has been dealing with this. Apparently, he is able to open up to them and even though he still acts out, he is learning and changing his coping methods and beginning to deal with his childhood issues. While I'm happy for his progress, I'm a little resentful that he can't seem to "bond" with me. After all, whose name is on the marriage license? Certainly not his therapists'!
I'm not sure what I want to do right now. It's very scary because I see myself headed towards my own "bottom". Everyone has their breaking point and I'll know when enough is enough. I'm just scared that that point will come before he's into any meaningful recovery. Which means divorced parents for my children, having to sell the home they've grown up in and additional financial burden for us all.
I've thrown myself into my work and that has helped tremendously. But I'm finding an increase in my moments of despair. I guess I'll just take another deep breath and forge on until there's no more air to breathe!
Thanks again,
allalone
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sat Sep 4th, 2010 03:27 pm |
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"...I keep reliving the discovery...."
I think that is common, AllAlone. I keep reliving or "seeing" the images my husband had bookmarked. I want to believe this is the Holy Spirit trying to tell me something through this, but as Mike suggested, perhaps this is the devil at work trying to wear us both down.
The despair is something that I too am experiencing. I have always thought of myself as a strong woman, but I question if I need some medication.......for anxiety and depression. It's been 14 months since my discovery. I should be snapping out of this...but I'm not. The Lord seems distant or non-existant. The flip side of the question is this: If we were unaffected upon learning of our husband's extracurricular activities, what would that say about us? Our relationship? What woman could toss this off as no big deal? A certain amount of shock, dismay, despair and depression and disappointment has to be "normal." I question if I am outside the bounds of normal.
Please know.......you are not All Alone...........I too wish I had a crystal ball......would know that everything will be alright by a date certain. That's just not the reality we live in and it's a hard reality to face.
My best, DW
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My best, Devastated Wife
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allalone
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Posted: Sat Sep 4th, 2010 03:43 pm |
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"That's just not the reality we live in and it's a hard reality to face."
I agree and understand it......I just don't like it!
allalone
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allalone
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Posted: Tue Sep 28th, 2010 06:42 pm |
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Hello Everyone,
I have some questions for those wives who have somehow "made it". What does a marriage in recovery look like?
Every piece of literature about sex addiction tells you "there will be slips" so how do you handle that? How do you make the decision to stay in a marriage that you know will be violated by betrayal and mistrust? Do you just let it go? Do you say to yourself "that's his problem and doesn't concern me"? Don't you think about the possibility that you may be exposed to a disease that could possibly kill you? How do you believe an addict whose very existence is based on lies?
God is my source of comfort and strength but I can't believe he would want me to subject myself to that kind of lifestyle. I never made the decision to marry a sex addict so as far as I am concerned, I'm not really married, am I?
allalone
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truthseeker
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Posted: Fri Oct 8th, 2010 03:10 am |
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Hi Allalone,
I did not respond before, because my situation, though recovered and joyful, never involved physical unfaithfulness. I think that adds a significant dimension to the equation to which I am not qualified to speak, so my comments are based either on what I have read, or might think applicable from what minimal experience I have had. Unfortunately, few remain to support others, and almost no feedback is given as to long term recovery or lack thereof, so I can't even offer any statistics on the likelihood of ongoing sobriety.
A marriage in recovery should be healthy, with ongoing, constructive communication, genuine affection, and, of course, faith at its center. Depending on what has been involved in the breach of trust, I believe that accountability for computer use, time, mileage, and money are necessary. In order to rebuild trust he must avoid any possible appearance of wrong-doing.
The one slip that we experienced is why I ended up here. I incorporated steps not used the first time, since those had obviously been insufficient. But again, I had no reason to believe that I would be risking myself physically.
I suppose that some people would include addiction in the "for better or worse" category, but adultery appears to be in a league of its own in Scripture. When it comes down to it, consultation with pastor and counselors is probably your best guidance.
TruthSeeker
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