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Man
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Posted: Fri Nov 14th, 2008 01:13 am |
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And I am not so sure if it makes me a christian to scream the right Bible-verses. If I tell everybody that I am absolutely sure that I am a christian, does that make me a christian?
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guitarist63
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Posted: Fri Nov 14th, 2008 10:38 pm |
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Hi Man. The devil spouted bible verses at Jesus so I would agree with you and say yes, reciting the bible is no indication a person (or in the devil's case, a being) is a Christian.
Last edited on Fri Nov 14th, 2008 10:39 pm by guitarist63
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Man
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Posted: Fri Nov 14th, 2008 11:02 pm |
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Yes
Mat. 7. 21-23
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guitarist63
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Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 08:52 pm |
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Thanks for giving the biblical reference, Man.
Last edited on Sat Nov 15th, 2008 08:54 pm by guitarist63
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Man
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Posted: Sat Nov 15th, 2008 10:43 pm |
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Your welcome
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Man
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Posted: Fri Nov 28th, 2008 12:03 am |
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When people scream and surround themselves with all the right Bibleverses and have absolutely no doubt, it might happen that I think that they are not honest? And if they are not honest, it might be difficult for me to trust them. They might have some blockings inside them. They are not true about their doubt. They're hiding it.
That's my thoughts, but maybe I am wrong? Maybe other people are not like me. Maybe other people have very little doubt? Maybe they have got something that I have not got? I don't know..
Thanks
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Man
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Posted: Fri Nov 28th, 2008 08:55 am |
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I think that if someone says all the right religious words, for me its kindo signing a contract, saying the "right words". It doesn't mean very much. That's how it I see it.
I think I will hold a little bit back and just see how people are, maybe what kindo fruits they have in their lives.
I think Matt. 7, 15-23 might be good: It is about fruits and it is also about someone who does great things in Jesus´name, but Jesus says that He doesn't know them.
I am at the moment thinking that I can't know who belongs to Jesus and who doesn't and it might not be very smart of me to judge another man`s heart. Then I have to know all about this person, but then I might take God´s place and that's wrong, isn't it?
Another thing: If there is a Book of Life and my name is written there, it might not go away if I say I am no christian or it might not be written in the book if I scream and say all the right things to other people? Could it be that what I do mgiht not change those things very much?
I just take a waiting attitude when people scream very much and I am not God so I can't see other people´s heart, so I just might wait and see..
Thanks
Last edited on Fri Nov 28th, 2008 09:05 am by Man
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Man
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Posted: Fri Nov 28th, 2008 09:29 am |
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When it comes to doubt, I might think that if it is all true with Jesus, I would think that He likes people who are honest about doubt i.e. and that it is better to be honest about doubt than pretending about a great faith if I don't have it.. or?
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truthseeker
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Posted: Fri Nov 28th, 2008 02:38 pm |
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Hi Man,
You are correct that only God truly knows. While the Bible does speak of knowing people by their fruit, it also cautions that not everyone claiming to do something in Christ's name is a believer, as you said. I can't imagine why a believer, other than facing persecution perhaps, would deny Christ, as Peter did. I have often wondered how well I would hold up in my faith were I faced with jail, rape, or death as christian women in other parts of the world are. I would like to think that I would never deny my Lord, but if I faced separation from, or torture or death of loved ones, enough pain or fear, I can't be sure now of how I would react. I can only hope that God would give me the strength at the time, as He did the early disciples and does so many in the persecuted church today. I do not know the answer to how far, in word or deed, a true believer can really stray from Scripture. Other than the extreme circumstances I just mentioned, I am inclined to believe people when they say that they do not believe, no matter how nice they may be. I have family members who are wonderfully nice people as the world would see them, but practice other religions and/or deny any need of salvation. I am, unfortunately, quite certain that I will not see them in Heaven unless they come to the point of seeing their need for Christ.
Saying the right words is at least the starting point from which I try to develop a relationship with someone based on the premise that they are a brother or sister in Christ. Just how much sin, or how little fruit would give me the right to question their faith? When people say that they believe, who am I to say that they do not. Since on one level all believers have a degree of accountability to one another, it is appropriate for me, more so if I am in an ongoing friendship or fellowship with someone, to lovingly point out areas where sin is present or fruit is absent and encourage them to strive for growth in that area. If I have done so, and growth seems stagnant, I feel it is best for me to not brow beat them about it, or question their faith, but pray for them. I also need to be open to the same type of feedback.
It is understandable to be reserved in developing relationships, especially if one has been hurt deeply before. Being the victim of harsh judgment or gossip, for example, from one who is supposed to love you as a brother or sister in Christ, makes it hard to trust others who claim to be brethren.
Now when it comes to looking for a teacher or mentor, I think that is where being able to observe fruit is important. The Bible tells us that those who lead, such as pastors and teachers, will be held to a higher standard, both for teaching the Word accurately, and setting a good example.
I do not believe that the Bible teaches that God has fixed the book of life and that our fate is sealed regardless of anything we do or do not do. In Romans we are told that if we believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, then we are written in that book. Anyone can say those words, but only an individual and God know whether there is belief in the heart.
I don't see anything in the Bible to suggest that pretending great faith is desired by God. In fact, the Bible is filled with people such as David, Job and others, who pour their doubts and questions out to God. Or as one person put it to Jesus, "I believe. Help my unbelief." I would liken faith to the browth of a tree. All trees start as seeds. It takes time, and the testing of storms for a tree to both grow and sink down deep roots. If we call a sapling oak useless because it has not jumped directly from being an acorn to a mighty fifty foot tree, we fail to give God the time to nurture it through the process of growth. God asks us as believers to lovingly water and fertilize one another, and is grieved when all we seem to want to do is prune one another, (a task best left to God,) or worse yet cut one another down.
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Man
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Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 12:13 am |
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truthseeker wrote:
Since on one level all believers have a degree of accountability to one another, it is appropriate for me, more so if I am in an ongoing friendship or fellowship with someone, to lovingly point out areas where sin is present or fruit is absent and encourage them to strive for growth in that area. If I have done so, and growth seems stagnant, I feel it is best for me to not brow beat them about it, or question their faith, but pray for them. I also need to be open to the same type of feedback.
Hi Truthseeker
I think we disagree a little bit.
You say that you think it is okay to say the right things. I think it is not necessary. If somebody say that they trustworthy, their words are nothing worth for me. I decide whether they are trustworthy to me, how much, how must trust I give them and so on.. An this trust that I might give will be based on experiences and it decrease and increase, but I think that my trust in them has very little to do with whether they say that they are trustworthy or not.
In Mat 12:50 Jesus says that those who does His Fathers will are His brothers and sisters and mother. For me it might be difficult to give people much trust.. People who scream very much about how far they have come, how much they love the Lord and so on..
I think that a good heart might produce good fruit, but I can't see into another mans heart and I also can't understand my own heart, so I feel that the smartest thing to do, is to be laidback.
The quoted text:
What if it was opposite: Somebody came and pointed out some areas where you lacked fruit or you had sin, would you like it?
I just got a feeling that I would be very irrtated on that attitude on me. I.e: If a man does not belong to a church, then somebody might come and tell him that he should do that, but then I would say: Maybe this person has been very hurt and need a time alone or what about John the baptist. I guess he wasn't a church-member. Maybe he had another call. Would it then be right to tell him with a big smile that he should go to a church. Then it might be the one who tells who is wrong and not John the baptist....
I just feel that I would be very irritated if someone came and explained me what I should do.
Last edited on Sat Nov 29th, 2008 12:21 am by Man
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truthseeker
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Posted: Sat Nov 29th, 2008 03:59 am |
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Hi Man,
If I were stranded somewhere, (let's say my car broke down, or public transportation was having a problem,) and a man told me he was a christian and offered me a ride, I would be an absolute fool to take the ride. That does not mean that I do not believe he is truly a christian, but that I do not have enough experience of knowing him to have established his trustworthiness or lack thereof. So let's say that I have my cell phone and call my husband to pick me up, and the stranger offers to wait with me until he arrives. Providing it is a reasonably well-traveled area, I would probably not be alarmed. We might even start talking about our faith, generalities about where we live, our families, churches, etc., and it might prove an enjoyable way to pass the time, but the chances of me suggesting to my husband that this "nice" man should come over for dinner are still almost non-existent. Even though I would have my husband's protection, I still would not know him well enough to trust with the exact location of my home. That lack of sufficient relationship to offer trust does not mean that I think he is lying about being a believer.
Ironically, I might tell a stranger who I never expect to encounter again that I moderate on a christian board for those struggling with sexual addiction, and their spouses, but only a couple of my closest friends know that about me. That should make evident that I do not trust all believers equally with my most personal information.
As the saying goes regarding trustworthiness, actions speak louder than words, but if someone doesn't offer their word to begin with, I cannot know whether or not they will keep it and earn trust. When developing a relationship, I extend trust in small things, and if it is warranted, extend it to larger things. If I share something somewhat personal with only one person, and someone else speaks to me about it, then I know that the person I told spoke to others about it and may not be trustworthy. Or it might mean that I didn't mention that I consider that information to be between the two of us, and they may not have recognized how personal I consider it. In my opinion, people should be very careful about sharing others' information, and I cannot count the times in my life that I have suggested someone ask another directly, rather than share what I know.
I hope that clarifies the difference I make between believing words and needing actions to affirm those words in order to develop a closer relationship.
You asked, "What if it was opposite: Somebody came and pointed out some areas where you lacked fruit or you had sin, would you like it?"
I don't always like it when the Holy Spirit does it, and He is never wrong. :-)
Humanly speaking, it would very much depend on who it was and how they expressed it. If it was an acquaintance who decided to take me to task in a confrontational manner, I would not like it and would probably tell them to get lost. If it were someone I considered a friend who came to me quietly and said, "I am concerned about you because..." I would be much more likely to listen, and consider what they have to say. In fact, if I had a major problem which resulted from sin or lack of a fruit, and later asked my close friends if they had noticed the problem before it got that big, and they had, I might start to question whether they cared as much as I thought. Relationship and approach are everything. As another saying goes, you can attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Even if the acquaintance were correct, I would probably distance myself from them, regardless of whether or not I decided to act on what they had said. On the other hand, even if my friend were mistaken for some reason, didn't have all the information, etc., I would probably still be friends with them, because they approached me with a loving/humble attitude.
If I knew, or thought I knew something about a friend that could cause difficulty for them or those they love,
what kind of friend would I be to remain silent and let them learn the hard way? True, my friend might not listen/believe me, but at least I know that I tried, and hopefully would be there to offer support, without saying "i told you so," if my concerns are realized.
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Man
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Posted: Mon Dec 1st, 2008 10:55 pm |
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There is another thing that is very quite difficult for me and that is "all the right answers". I don't get it. What is the point of and saying all the right things all the time? and explaining others "how it is".
I usually only get irritated when I get the "right answers". What about you guys? Maybe we are different? Maybe some of you really like to be told "how it is"? Does it help anybody?
Or maybe I have an inside attitude that I am better than others and when others tell me something, then I might get irritated..?
If someone says that 2 + 2 = 4, 4 + 4 = 8 and so it might not help me very much in my crisis, but it is true: their words..
Thanks
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Paulos
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Posted: Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 01:54 pm |
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Hello, Man.
Sin blinds the mind so we can't see reality as it is. Truth shines light in so we can leave sin behind. I, for one, want to be shown and reminded "how it is" so that I can move forward out of my darkness.
Last edited on Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 01:55 pm by Paulos
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Man
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Posted: Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 09:36 pm |
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Paulos wrote: Hello, Man.
Sin blinds the mind so we can't see reality as it is. Truth shines light in so we can leave sin behind. I, for one, want to be shown and reminded "how it is" so that I can move forward out of my darkness.
Okay, but if you ask for one thing and get something totally different as an answer, do you still find it okay? You get something totally irrellevant as an answer, something that you know very well?
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Man
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Posted: Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 10:05 pm |
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I would think that all people who are honest have doubts more or less. And if they are 100 % sure, then I draw the conclusion that they are not trustworthy. They are not honest and searching into themselves. They are lying. Am I wrong?
Last edited on Tue Dec 2nd, 2008 10:33 pm by Man
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truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 02:42 am |
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Hi Man,
"I would think that all people who are honest have doubts more or less."
Why would you think that?
"And if they are 100 % sure, then I draw the conclusion that they are not trustworthy."
You appear to be 100% sure of your conclusion that confidence/certainty renders one untrustworthy. Do you ever doubt this conclusion? If not, does that mean that you are untrustworthy?
Interestingly, while I have noted that many people in the Old Testament, and some in the Gospels questioned God and expressed their doubts to Him, I cannot immediately think of any doubts recorded once the Holy Spirit was given. Granted, I have not read straight through from Acts to Revelation recently, so I may have forgotten something. Could the indwelling of the Holy Spirit have some profound impact on doubt?
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Paulos
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Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 09:00 pm |
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Man,
If an answer is different from what I was expecting, it could be that I was asking the wrong question. If answers are to be limited to my expectations, my horizon will never expand, I will never learn anything new.
If an answer merely repeats what I already know very well, it may be that I know it theoretically and not yet experientially. Maybe if I hear it enough times I will take a step and really learn the answer.
Even those systems of Christian theology that teach a strong doctrine of predestination and divine initiative also teach that we must respond to God's advances. God's choice and prior moving prompt us to prove receptive to him.
True, Augustine wrote, "It is God who gave us even to believe" (De spiritu et littera 54), and "It is God who both works in man the willing to believe, and in all things goes before us with his mercy" (ibid. 60). But in the same breath he added, "To yield our consent, indeed, to God's summons, or to withhold it, is . . . the function of our own will" (ibid. 60). Thus: "Man's righteousness must be attributed to the operation of God, although not taking place without man's will" (ibid. 7 [v]; italics mine). "We are assisted by divine aid towards the achievement of righteousness . . . because our very will . . . is assisted and elevated by the importation of the Spirit of grace" (ibid. 20).
If you don't feel able to respond to God, pray Augustine's prayer: "Give me what you command" (ibid. 22).
He will, if you let him. Is this what you want?
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Man
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Posted: Wed Dec 3rd, 2008 09:52 pm |
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Hi
Thanks for feedbacks. I don't feel safe if it lays on me to cry to God. What if I don't have enough strength? What if I don't have enough power?
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Paulos
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Posted: Thu Dec 4th, 2008 02:23 pm |
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Man,
No child of Adam and Eve has the "strength" or the "power" to please God. God invites us to get our eyes off our own weakness and place our trust in his sufficiency. What we can't do apart from him, he can do through us, his will acting upon and in our will. "Work out your own salvation . . . for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:13).
We don't take the first step; God does. But when he pushes, faith does take a step.
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Man
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Posted: Thu Dec 18th, 2008 10:55 pm |
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I might think that I am better than a lot of people and I might have a lot of pride..
I think that I am honest. When I talk about doubt, I think that I am honest. And if it's all true with Jesus, I am close to Jesus when being honest.
If I scream a lot of Bible-verses, then I might not be true if I am not honest with doubt. And I think that many people in charismatic movement are not honest.
But there is a price to pay to be honest or shall I say: Follow Jesus. When doing that, I might get low status. A lot of people maybe wanna explain me things, thinking that I have come very short...
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