| Author | Post |
|---|
Ed Neal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 77 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: |    |
|
Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 11:22 pm |
|
Joel2:25 wrote: Ed, I am simply asking once again, what is your *point*?
My point is this: We will not be free of sexual addictions so long as we are believing lies about who we are.
That begins with who we are as human beings. The truth about who we are is to be found in the Scriptures, NOT in the traditions (or traditional understanding) of men. We have to look to God's Word first.
We are following man-made rules (based on the traditions of men rather than the truth of God's Word) in hopes that those rules will keep us from sexual sin.
A simple look around us reveals that it's not working! Even in the church, 50% of Christian men struggle with pornography. Something is desperately wrong. The typical way of handling and addressing sexual temptation is flawed. The track record for it is abysmal. It's time to reexamine it!
Col 2:20-23 (NIV-emphasis mine) says:
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
The rules for purity that we've all been following all our lives really do seem wise... But they aren't working.
This is the problem that I suggest is at the core of anyone's struggle with pornography and sexual sin. It's a truth issue-- not a body issue, nor a physiology issue, nor a commitment issue.
God's Word is our source. My opinions won't help. Neither will the opinions and tradtions of man.
Can it be anything other than "healthy" to be unwaveringly committed to the truth of God's word and nothing else? ...regardless of where it leads us?
P.S. I'm not your brother ... think outside the box. 
Touché!
My sincerest apologies, M'lady! (with a bow and a tip of my hat!)
Pastor Ed
Last edited on Tue Dec 12th, 2006 01:06 am by Ed Neal
|
henny
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 27th, 2006 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 98 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Tue Dec 12th, 2006 01:23 am |
|
Ed,
You're a puzzle.
The verse you refer to (Col 2:20-23) is not dealing with sexual purity. In context Paul is talking about Jewish ritual purity and rules regarding food and drink, sabbaths and festivals. (See v 16)
But that's not the main point. You state..."The rules for purity that we've all been following all our lives really do seem wise... But they aren't working."
Which rules in particular?
You go on to say, "This is the problem that I suggest is at the core of anyone's struggle with pornography and sexual sin. It's a truth issue-- not a body issue, nor a physiology issue, nor a commitment issue.
God's Word is our source. My opinions won't help. Neither will the opinions and tradtions of man.
Can it be anything other than "healthy" to be unwaveringly committed to the truth of God's word and nothing else? ...regardless of where it leads us?"
Ed, my brother in Christ, can I ask you to quit dancing around and leading us all on some kind of Socratic dialogue.
What's going on? You say that you have experienced complete freedom from even the temptation to look at pornography. I believe you.
Then you go into this mystical, lies-vs-truth, what does God say about nudity, our bodies, etc, etc evasion. And go ahead, you challenge, throw any verse you want at me, I've been there done that, got the T-shirt, and it says "ED KNOWS THE TRUTH"
Well, Ed, give us the truth. Quit playing dodge-ball.
What was it you used to believe?
What is it you now believe?
How has that changed your approach to pornography?
Why?
Give us some answers, or I'm afraid most folks here will tire of this little game.
Sorry if that seems harsh. But, a claim to absolute freedom from even the tempatation to look at pornography is the holy grail in these circles. So, brother, with all love and gentleness, put up or shut up.
|
Ed Neal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 77 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Tue Dec 12th, 2006 06:01 pm |
|
henny wrote: Ed,
You're a puzzle.
The verse you refer to (Col 2:20-23) is not dealing with sexual purity. In context Paul is talking about Jewish ritual purity and rules regarding food and drink, sabbaths and festivals. (See v 16)
I would disagree. While you are correct that this particular area of "sensual indulgence" was not what was in Paul's mind, the principle that he stated in vv20-23 transcend the specific application that he made in the context. If that were not so, the passage would not have relevance to us at all, since we do not face issues regarding jewish ritual purity.
But that's not the main point. You state..."The rules for purity that we've all been following all our lives really do seem wise... But they aren't working."
Which rules in particular?
What do we teach our kids about how to stay pure? What do we learn in church? What do the books we read tell us? In essence they say, "Don't look. Don't enjoy. Don't show. Don't touch. Don't be curious. Drive around. Cancel service. Look elsewhere." They all make perfect sense and sound wise! But in my life and the lives of so many others, we have still lived lives of frustration with the fact that we can't seem to quench those sensual urges within us. When they don't work, we gather together and encourage each other to just be more committed or accountable or brutal or drastic with following those rules! But very few of us are even deperate and hopeful enough (it takes both!) to keep at it.
Paul asks, "why do you submit to all those rules as if you still belonged to the world? Ultimately, they do not and cannot eliminate the real problem."
You go on to say, "This is the problem that I suggest is at the core of anyone's struggle with pornography and sexual sin. It's a truth issue-- not a body issue, nor a physiology issue, nor a commitment issue.
God's Word is our source. My opinions won't help. Neither will the opinions and tradtions of man.
Can it be anything other than "healthy" to be unwaveringly committed to the truth of God's word and nothing else? ...regardless of where it leads us?"
Ed, my brother in Christ, can I ask you to quit dancing around and leading us all on some kind of Socratic dialogue.
I had not thought of it as a Socratic dialogue, but I'll take your word for it.
And I'm sorry to say that, while I understand your frustration with my approach here, I don't believe that I should use any other approach. It boils down to the fact that if someone is unwilling to address the issues that I'm raising, they will most certainly not be open to the conclusions that I have come to.
What's going on? You say that you have experienced complete freedom from even the temptation to look at pornography. I believe you.
Thank you. It's wonderfully true. I'm still amazed.
Then you go into this mystical, lies-vs-truth, what does God say about nudity, our bodies, etc, etc evasion. And go ahead, you challenge, throw any verse you want at me, I've been there done that, got the T-shirt, and it says "ED KNOWS THE TRUTH"
Ouch.
I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to   aggrandize myself and claim some sort of special insight. I can see how it appears that way. But frankly, I don't know how else to share what I've experienced without it appearing that way.
It really is not evasion, Brother-- it is cultivation. There are some here who have found resonance with what I have posted publicly. They demonstrated that they were open to further exploration of the issues I have raised and their implications. I have now entered into private dialogue with them where I can be much more open that this public forum would allow.
Well, Ed, give us the truth. Quit playing dodge-ball.
-What was it you used to believe?
-What is it you now believe?
-How has that changed your approach to pornography?
-Why?
Give us some answers, or I'm afraid most folks here will tire of this little game.
I know the answers I'm about to give are still going to seem evasive, but this is how I have to answer here. Please bear with me.
- I used to believe like just about everyone else believes in Western culture in general and Christianity in particular about our bodies, shame, modesty, and sexual response. These issues I have reexamined in the light of Scripture and found that in all four areas, the Bible's actual perspective is quite different than I always understood.
- After careful research and Biblical study, my views regarding those four areas changed dramatically. The views I now hold are so contrary to what most people assume that they would be almost universally denounced without a hearing if I were to just say them straight out. That's why the cultivation of asking crucial questions is so important. If someone never even has reason to question their current view, how can they even consider any opposing views?
- We look at pornography because we believe certain things about it. We see the human body as a sexual object. We are drawn to it in spite of the fact that we consider its display shameful. And we respond to it the only way we know how. I no longer look at the body, shame, modesty or sexual responses the same way. So now, for me, all I see or can think of regarding pornography is how false it is. Perhaps the women are beautiful, but that standard of beauty is false. The women themselves are being objectified and degraded. Sexuality is devoid of relationship. It is simply ugly. I have no more interest in it.
- This change would not have happened without my changed views on those four areas. In fact, even as I was considering the issues, studying and wondering about my old beliefs, the power of pornography's allure in my heart began to weaken. My search of these issues for me personally was more about how I could effective teach my son the truth about our bodies from God's perspective... and how to help him avoid the pitfalls that I had fallen into. I was not seeking a path of freedom from porn for myself. Like everyone else, I just believed I'd be fighting it the rest of my life. My freedom from it was almost a fringe benefit!
Sorry if that seems harsh. But, a claim to absolute freedom from even the tempatation to look at pornography is the holy grail in these circles. So, brother, with all love and gentleness, put up or shut up.
Most people have lost any hope of ever finding that "holy grail." Most would tell us that it doesn't exist.
I once heard someone say this at a worship conference... but I think it applies here...
"If you want to experience something you've never experienced before, you will have to do something you've never done before."
I would restate it for our issue:
"If you want to experience something you've never experienced before, you will have to believe something you've never believed before."
I hope this post is helpful.
Pastor Ed
|
Joel2:25
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 26th, 2005 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 126 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Tue Dec 12th, 2006 07:19 pm |
|
Ed, in all due respect, you ARE being "mystical" about this knowledge you claim to have. I've noticed on this thread that no one seems to have the insight you do into scripture on the subject, not to say what you're thinking is wrong .... you just refuse to be forthcoming on the subject.
What has your pastor said about these ideas? Does he agree?
My personal opinion is maybe you should discuss your revelations privately with Mike, as he's the webbie and highly esteemed in my opinion. Get his input, get his go ahead, and then let him recommend ways to communicate in such a way this knowledge can benefit the group.
|
Ed Neal
Member
| Joined: | Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 77 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Tue Dec 12th, 2006 08:17 pm |
|
Joel2:25 wrote: Ed, in all due respect, you ARE being "mystical" about this knowledge you claim to have. I've noticed on this thread that no one seems to have the insight you do into scripture on the subject, not to say what you're thinking is wrong .... you just refuse to be forthcoming on the subject.
It really is not an issue of being "mystical," in my understanding of the term... perhaps "mysterious" would be a more accurate term?
Until 5 months ago, the insights and perspectives I now hold would have been foreign to me, too. We as a society and almost universally within the church have not addressed the questions I have raised. We've never even considered that the traditional view regarding our understanding of the body and God's perspective of it is distorted. We used Biblical terminology, but we don't realize that what we proclaim as biblical simply is not taught in the Bible.
So, since I have now studied these issues, the standard responses (Coats of Skin, Noah, Lev. 18, Priestly undergarments, modesty requirement, etc) have all been addressed in my thinking. The traditional understandings are not exegetically faithful to the Scriptures. It's so clear to me now, I can and do respond very quickly and confidently.
I again assert that if someone is not willing to reexamine their understanding of the Scriptures regarding the issues raised, they will not be ready to hear or consider what I have come to believe. I would lose my audience before even being heard.
What has your pastor said about these ideas? Does he agree?
I have not yet spoken to my Senior pastor about these issues. I'm considering and praying about when and how. But, like just about everyone else in Christendom, it would be a pretty grave shock to face such a change of perspective and would likely not be well received. I would have to exercise the tremendous caution there.
My personal opinion is maybe you should discuss your revelations privately with Mike, as he's the webbie and highly esteemed in my opinion. Get his input, get his go ahead, and then let him recommend ways to communicate in such a way this knowledge can benefit the group.
That is a good suggestion. I have considered doing exactly that. I can tell you that I have already decided not to post all the details of my perspective change publicly without his permission.
Thanks.
Have a great day!
Pastor Ed
|
truthseeker
Administrator
| Joined: | Tue May 16th, 2006 |
| Location: | New Jersey USA |
| Posts: | 1322 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
| Mana: | |
|
Posted: Tue Dec 12th, 2006 08:43 pm |
|
Hi Ed,
So would you please, please, seek Mike's approval, and share your unconventional "wisdom" with us, or let us know that Mike declined permission? We are tired of being teased, and are apparently too stupid to deduce your secret, so you'll just have to spellit out for all us dense folk.
TruthSeeker
|
mike
Administrator
|
Posted: Tue Dec 12th, 2006 09:16 pm |
|
I have made a covenant with my eyes; How then could I gaze at a virgin?
Job 31:1
Ed, the purpose of these forums is to give those who struggle with sexual addiction and their spouses a safe place to share their struggles and weaknesses, and find encouragement and support from others.
This is not the place for preaching or stirring up an endless debate over controversial issues that in the end could cause more harm than good. The direction you've taken this topic is going to do little more than rub salt in the wound of hurting wives, in addition to putting questions in the minds of struggling men that don't need to be there.
Many of your postings seem to have more to do with preaching and your theories of theology rather than providing honest transparency of your own situation, or support for others. Your views on freedom from sexual addiction have been made and it's time to move on.
I'm locking this topic, and I'm also asking you politely to do away with the preaching in these forums. If you want to hang around to be of encouragement to others and be a little more transparent with your own life and hurts (as the others are doing), ok. Otherwise, this forums may not be the best place for you.
|
Current time is 05:42 am | Page:   1 2 |
|
|
|
RSS