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aandt
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 11:23 am |
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I have never struggled with homosexuality, however, I believe that Christians should love the sinner, hate the sin. This weekend my world was turned upside down when I was trying to find ways to witness to homosexuals. I found a website about a Christian church that accepts gay, lesbian, and bisexuals. On the website, they had some things that could change my whole way of thinking and I need help and my questions answered.
Here is what they argue:
1.) They say Jesus said some are born gay. Matthew 19: 10-12 in The Bible reads The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better to not marry. Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept the word, but only those to whom it has been given. For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The who can accept this should accept it."
2.) It claims the church welcomed an early gay man. Acts 8: 26-40. It simply says eunuch in this scripture which means a castrated man; a man or boy deprived of the testes or external genitals. That does not mean homosexual to me.
3.) They also say Jesus affirmed a gay couple in Matthew 8: 5-13. They imply that the centurion servant has a homosexual relationship with his master.
4.) David's love for Jonathan. II Samuel 1:26 says I grieve for you you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women.
Also read 1 Samuel 18 where Jonathan and David became one with the spirit and had a covenant. Their relationship does sound like much of a relationship of a man and wife.
5.) Ruth loved Naomi as Adam loved Eve. Genesis 2:24; Ruth 1:14.
My wife and I read these scriptures and are eyes lit up. We have never been exposed to these verses being taught this way. Please help!!!!
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bil4913
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 03:46 pm |
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Hi, aandt.
MODERATOR'S NOTE: BG's TOS state that "You will refrain from making statements or URLs which promote the acceptability of the homosexual lifestyle..." I don't think you've crossed this line, but I have to make sure that this thread does not stray from the conditions of the board. Because you presented your thoughts as a question and asked for help, I feel there is room for discussion here. But we're walking a thin line.
I understand the experience of having your theology rocked. That's not a bad thing. We need to really understand why we believe what we believe. I grew up in a household that believed that drinking alcoholic beverages was wrong and had my world rocked when Christian peers would drink wine or beer. I came to realize I had no Biblical basis to support my parents' belief and while I still choose to never drink (I'm already a sex addict, the last thing I need to do is add another potential problem to my life), I cannot say it's wrong for Christians to drink.
So, I have applied the same process to the question of homosexuality. I've always believed it's wrong but recently, I did go through scripture and spent time with those pro-gay Christian websites, looking thru their arguments as well as the arguments against homosexuality. It was hard work.
I don't have access to my notes right now and would be happy to share them with you off-line. But I went into this exercise having shed my assumptions and was emotionally prepared to come out gay-friendly if my scripture study led me there. It didn't.
But what is important is that now I am clear as to why I have the position I have, not only towards homosexuality as a moral issue, but also regarding gay rights, or my response to those Christians who have reached a different conclusion.
I encourage you to do the same.
However, regarding the 5 points made by this web site, there is absolutely no trace of evidence that any of those situations had sexual overtones. With the 2 old testament scenarios: Jonathan/David and Ruth/Naomi, the levitical covenant was still in effect and that explicit forbade same sex sex - on penalty of death. No way would God have contradicted Himself by condoning homosexual relationships. I agree that the word eunuch has nothing to do with homosexuality. Eunuchs cannot have sex -- with anybody! Finally, the implication that the centurion and his servant were lovers is just plain bizarre, and has no more support than the theory that Jesus and Mary Magdelene were lovers.
There are legitimate arguments that deserve attention and dispassionate consideration. Those weren't them!
BTW, you posted twice on this topic. I'm going to delete the post that was on the church thread just to streamline things.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 05:08 pm |
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Hi Andrew,
I am no Bible scholar, so will just share my personal comments regarding these examples.
The Matt. 19 passage speaks to me of celibacy. Some were born unable to have relations with a woman, some were maimed, often to serve as guards for women without risk of temptation, and others, such as Paul, chose celibacy in order to focus on ministry, which has also been warped to prevent priests from marrying, a travesty, in my opinion.
Eunuch is certainly no synonym for homosexual.
Slave or servant is an even more desperate reach to synonymize as homosexual. There was no mention of a relationship other than servant and master, and no blessing, just healing. Were there Romans who abused their slaves in this way? Probably. There have also been priests, teachers, coaches, and others of many, many professions who have abused people thus, but that does not mean that all in authority do so.
Being no scholar, I have no idea which of several words for love was used in regard to David and Jonathan. I have female friends who understand me, or at least certain aspects of myself, like my husband never will, but that does not mean that my treasuring their friendship, the love of a friend, makes me a lesbian.
I'm not sure exactly what took place with the covenant, but the context seems to indicate that it was almost more like Saul adopting David as a son, giving him trust, authority and responsibility as he would a son, rather than a shift in his friendship with Jonathan.
Cleaving simply means to cling. There are no sexual overtones to that. It certainly does not say that they were one flesh. Indeed, Ruth was married both before and after this passage, her offspring with Boaz being in the lineage of Jesus.
False teachers will twist the Bible to scratch itching ears--tell people what they want to hear, not what is true.
On the contrary, what is clearly modeled, over and over, is that marriage is between one man and one woman for life--that any sex/lust apart from that is sin. From Genesis, where God established marriage between Adam and Eve, to Revelation, where Christ celebrates the wedding supper of the Lamb with his "bride" the church, Scripture is consistent in its message. I suggest reviewing Romans 1, Ephesians 5, and 1 Cor. 6 and 7. And lest any point out that David and Solemon had more than one wife, I would note that they were still sinners, and how much trouble it got them in to.
This type of corrupt teaching is why it is essential for believers to know the whole of Scripture so as not to be swayed by even the most silver-tongued deceiver.
TruthSeeker
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TimM
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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aandt,
I don't think I can usefully address the questions you ask, but I would ask one of my own: How do these questions help you to address your own sexual temptations, which don't involve homosexuality?
I know that's a slightly confrontational question, but I just think it's terribly important for all of us always to keep reminding ourselves of the desperate stakes involved in addiction recovery in general, and in this board in particular. If we allow ourselves to wander off into intellectual chat about other people - or even into terribly important issues not directly related to our own recovery, which I think is what your questions are - then we risk losing sight of what I think is the central task here of finding freedom for ourselves.
Discussing someone else's homosexuality is a lot more comfortable than digging one layer deeper into my own fears and resentments and character defects, looking at one more aspect of myself I prefer to pretend isn't there, or letting go to God one more piece of ego on which my life seems to depend. That's why I try to resist the temptation to discuss the comfortable things, and try to stay with the hard and necessary ones.
That's not to say I don't think your questions are important. I'm working right now with a friend who is really struggling in deep and personal ways with issues of homosexuality and Christianity. I can imagine this person accepting or rejecting a permanently celibate lifestyle, and I can imagine this person accepting or rejecting entering the Church. For this person, those issues matter in profound and existential ways, and I am listening intently as that person gnaws through those issues.
But not here.
Not that everyone has to live their lives as I have, of course. God knows the vast majority of it hasn't worked all that well for me.
Tim M.
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CB
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 08:52 pm |
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Tim, I think you completely missed the point of the original post. He's not putting off dealing with his issues by talking about a problem he doesn't have. He's recently had some fundamental biblical beliefs challenged by adverse teachings... and understandably has questions... and even more understandably is looking for answers to those questions. I, for one, would hate to get to the point where I'm dismissing a valid concern because it's 'not the correct place to talk about it'.
aandt, I've heard some of these teachings (specifically the one with the centurion). After reading their argument, which was sketchy at best, I went back and read the passage. In the wildest stretch of my imagination, I could not get to the same conclusion they did. So, I just dismissed the rest of their arguments as well. The fact of the matter is that the bible does talk about homosexuality, and it's never in a positive way.
CB!
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TimM
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Posted: Tue Nov 25th, 2008 09:22 pm |
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CB,
Perhaps you're right. I tend to think of BG as a recovery board with a Christian emphasis. From that perspective, I'd stand by my reply. I don't see what the question has to do with addiction recovery. If, on the other hand, BG is a Christian discussion board with porn as a major topic but not as the central focus, then questions like this are clearly germane (and probably a bunch of my posts have not been). Boy, I'm glad I'm not running this board!
Probably a better way to have raised my concerns would have been in the style of Quaker queries:
- What is the central reason we are members of this board?
- Is this thread connected with that reason?
You're right that depending on the answer to the first query, the answer to the second might be, "Yes".
Tim M.
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Man
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Posted: Wed Nov 26th, 2008 12:13 am |
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truthseeker wrote: On the contrary, what is clearly modeled, over and over, is that marriage is between one man and one woman for life--that any sex/lust apart from that is sin.
TruthSeeker
I am not so sure about that... It might be the best, but maybe not in all cases.
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Paulos
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Posted: Wed Nov 26th, 2008 05:12 pm |
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Surely a general understanding of what sexuality is meant to be is foundational to one's particular "recovery"? Might not consideration of homosexuality, even if one doesn't wrestle with that condition personally, contribute to one's overall view?
The proper place to begin in building a biblical outlook on homosexuality is with the passages that address homosexual practice specifically: Genesis 19; Leviticus 18:22; 20:13; Deuteronomy 23:18; Romans 1:26-27; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Timothy 1:10; Jude 7; Revelation 22:15. These passages, representing multiple authors in multiple cultures over a period of about a millennium and a half, are unequivocally negative. People, therefore, who discover in themselves a tendency toward this sort of behavior need our compassion and help, not our "acceptance" (by which the gay lobby means moral approval and welcome) nor our con-celebration.
That segment of the gay militancy who are trying to infiltrate the Christian church are doing their utmost to deflect attention from the natural sense of the verses referenced and to proffer alternative verses that may sound, to the uninitiated in biblical study, as if they might allow a point of view that is in fact fundamentally at odds with scripture. None of the arguments from the website aandt found is valid, as a close reading of each passage in its context will settle.
Positively, the revealed paradigm for human sexuality is found in the creation narratives of Genesis 1-2, especially in Genesis 1:26; 2:18-25. Here we see the formula: one man and one woman, in a covenant of marriage, for life. As we seek to support one another in sanctification/recovery, undoubtedly we are agreed that is the goal, is it not?
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aandt
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Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 04:54 am |
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I honestly never meant to step on anyone's toes. I did not realize my question would be so controversial. I, like many of you, am so happy I found this website and I really need this to continue to grow.
Speaking of growth, as men of God, we are seeking truth. Do we want to be complete men? If any of you ever come into contact with a homosexual, wouldn't you want to know how to help them overcome their sexual immorality just as we want to overcome ours?
I am still a baby Christian. I was raised in church, but have only seeked Christ for about a year and a half. My goal is to not only learn about my sexual sin, but to learn about all sexual sin. We were placed on Earth to grow in Christ and our job is to lead others to Christ as well. I really do not want to live my life knowing that I didn't sow a seed to someone else and help change their mindset through Christ.
We need to educate ourselves on the arguments so that we will not look like fools when paying our seed forward.
After reading my post, I continued to search through my Bible and it clearly states that homosexual sin is wrong. I really would like to challenge these churches theology that condone homosexuality.
In time, as I mature I am certain I will learn more.
Once again, I apologize for any ill will. It was not intended. I pray that God blesses all of you and will continue to show each one of us knowledge to overcome whatever our addictions may be.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 10:34 am |
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Andrew, I don't think there was truly any difficulty here, only that, as in any community, we are made up here of individuals with somewhat varying perspectives on things, even as believers.
While we should never despair of trying to show those who have been deceived the truth of Scripture, not what pleases their politically correct, itching ears, the Bible also warns us of great apostacy as we approach the end times.
TruthSeeker
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TimM
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Posted: Thu Nov 27th, 2008 12:32 pm |
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aandt,
My apologies if my own reaction came across as unfriendly. In the 12-step circles I frequent, there is a very high cultural value placed on taking one's own moral inventory and not the inventories of other people. There is also a high value placed on maintaining a very tight focus on one's own recovery. It's common for people to challenge one another very directly for straying from those principles, and this is seen as a highly appropriate act of love and concern for another's sobriety. That's the cultural setting from which my own comments emerged - not in any way as a criticism, but as an effort to call someone home.
From the ensuing discussion, it's clear that I don't understand very well the values and customs of this community, and that the customs of my people are less universal than I would have thought. I probably need to become much more sensitive to my own status here as a foreign guest.
Tim M.
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TK
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Posted: Tue Dec 16th, 2008 11:57 am |
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aandt,
As this forum outlines, this is a place to help those in their struggles with homosexually, not a place to debate whether being gay is a sin. So, I'm not even going to go there. I only wanted to mention that you made a very good point about what Christians should do and that I believe Jesus, himself, did...that is to "love the sinner not the sin". I also wanted to make a comment on a statement that you made about "challenging the churches theology that condone homosexually". I believe we are to live by example and love one another. God is the one and only true judge. My bible states that all good things work together for those who love the Lord. And I believe that we are suppose to stand for something (what we believe in) or we will fall for anything (the obstacles and pitfalls the devil places in our paths for our destruction), but we have to trust God to have a plan for our lives and to fight the spiritual war fares between right and wrong for us. God Bless you in your Spiritual Quest.
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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Man
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Posted: Wed Dec 17th, 2008 12:32 am |
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TK wrote: aandt,
As this forum outlines, this is a place to help those in their struggles with homosexually, not a place to debate whether being gay is a sin. So, I'm not even going to go there. I only wanted to mention that you made a very good point about what Christians should do and that I believe Jesus, himself, did...that is to "love the sinner not the sin". I also wanted to make a comment on a statement that you made about "challenging the churches theology that condone homosexually". I believe we are to live by example and love one another. God is the one and only true judge. My bible states that all good things work together for those who love the Lord. And I believe that we are suppose to stand for something (what we believe in) or we will fall for anything (the obstacles and pitfalls the devil places in our paths for our destruction), but we have to trust God to have a plan for our lives and to fight the spiritual war fares between right and wrong for us. God Bless you in your Spiritual Quest.
"love the sinner not the sin"
"I believe we are to live by example and love one another. God is the one and only true judge."
Do you do this TK?
"My bible states that all good things work together for those who love the Lord."
Do you experience this?
"And I believe that we are suppose to stand for something (what we believe in) or we will fall for anything (the obstacles and pitfalls the devil places in our paths for our destruction), but we have to trust God to have a plan for our lives and to fight the spiritual war fares between right and wrong for us."
What do you stand for?
How do you trust God? What do you do in practice to make that?
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May the Lord bless you all!
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TK
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Posted: Thu Dec 18th, 2008 03:54 pm |
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Man,
You asked about whether or not I believe God is the one and only true Judge and if I live by example and love one another. I do. Although, I am only human, and a sinner, I do make mistakes, but I strive to live my life by example primarily for my children. And yes, I do love one another, no matter whether they are gay, straight, black, white, from this country, or another, and although my in-laws disagree with me I even love prisoners no matter their crime. And in all of this, it makes no difference to me whether you or anyone else care how I live or who I love, God is my only true judge and in the end he is yours, as well.
You asked if I have experienced that all good things work together for those who love the Lord. Yes, of course, I have! I could go on and on about this topic, but I will keep it short. I am a survivor. I am not a victim. God has provided for me as I have needed. He has sent Angels (special people) to me in my lowest moments. Some helped to pull me up on my feet, others simple had a message for me that gave me that needed boost to get up on my own and focus my priorities. My life "story" isn't a pretty one, and it is for that reason that I know that God has a purpose for me, otherwise why else would the devil be trying so damn hard to get rid of me? So, to answer your question, heck yeah, I have experienced God's grace! Good things to work together for those who love the Lord!
What do you stand for?
How do you trust God? What do you do in practice to make that?
I stand up for my personal morals and values, while not condemning others for theirs. I trust God that he has a reason for everything that happens in my life and as long as I keep my faith he will see me through and give me the strength I need and provide for me. After all I had always heard that God won't put more on you than you can handle. However, during some of the things I have been through; I questioned God asking him if just maybe he trusts me just a bit too much. But here I am, he provided and I survived. My life's motto is simply this; "Everything happens for a Reason!"
Now, about your question "what do I do in practice to make that?" I don't quite understand what you mean. If your asking how to I practice standing up for what I believe in, I don't allow others to sway my beliefs. I'm open to learning new things. I actually love to learn about other religions and cultures, but I trust what I know.. the truth I believe the truths that Jesus taught. I also teach my children the morals and values that I believe in. However, I do this in a loving and nurturing way, not as I was taught and controlled by them in my childhood. i make a point to take the time to explain to my children why I believe the things I do as opposed to the way maybe their friends as school do. I want them to know where I'm coming from, so they have a firm foundation. This way they can stand firm in the beliefs they choose to believe ( hopefully along the same lines as I do, but I am trusting God to show them the Truth), as my Bible says we each discern our own understanding. I guess my what I practice is my purpose and I believe that is to help in the fight to stop the cycle of abuse. I am studying and earning my degree in psychology and in therapy myself to learn and understand the full concept of how the abuse I survived has affected me. And I have been very open with my own children about my experience, so they can understand and recognize the effects. The abuse I suffered was a generational curse and with God's help and my faith, it stops with my children. I hope this answers your questions. I'm not sure what more I can say without more or less sounding like I am rambling (to anyone not interested in learning) or going too deep into this subject...it's my passion.
So, I hope I answered all your questions. God Bless you, Sir! And remember "EVERYTHING HAPPENS FOR A REASON!" 
____________________
-TK
"Everything Happens For A Reason."
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Man
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Posted: Fri Dec 19th, 2008 12:06 am |
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Thank you, for me it is much more interesting to listen to real-life-stories than getting explanations..
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LoveSick4God
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Posted: Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 03:42 pm |
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I do not struggle with homosexuality either, and definatly agree with you on loving those who are trapped in that lifestyle. It is my belief that homosexuality is caused by a father wound. By people's dads not loving or caring for them like they should. So we as men, search for that masculine love, and when we can't find it in a father son relationship, we turn to other men to fullfil those needs and desires. A lot of people buy into the lie that they are stuck in homosexuality because they were "born that way" but just like anything else, it's something that individual chose to do out of his hurt. But God is so passionate about seeing homosexuals set free and restored in His love. But we definatly need to love them as we love ourselves. That doesn't mean we have to support their beliefs, but just love them through it. Too many gay men or lesbians turn from the church and from Christians because they don't feel loved. Matter of fact, they feel rejected and unwanted and unloved. We should be the ones loving them with all that Christ has put inside us.
-LoveSick4God
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Man
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Posted: Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 10:14 pm |
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LoveSick4God: How do you love them?
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LoveSick4God
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Posted: Thu Jan 22nd, 2009 10:57 pm |
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| I try to love them as I would love any other person who hasn't recieved Christ, except with a greater level of the Father's affection. But I think they need to be treated as anyone else. So many Christians treat homosexuals like they're sin itself and as if they're a desease. There just like any of us, they just have a broken heart and are crying out for the the Father's love, even if they know it or not. A very, very close person I know was a homosexual, and has been delivered since, but that taught me a great deal about how to love them. Well keep on keepin' on.
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Man
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 09:56 am |
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How do you love them?
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LoveSick4God
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 03:50 pm |
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By showing them the Farher's love that we've recievd from God himself, rather it be through a hug or an encouraging word or just telling them that they're loved by God. And treating them as normally as possible with, of course keeping in mind, that they need special attention from the father-like love we've recieved from God.
And I'm not perfect and I don't always love them as I should, but I try my best.
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