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ceremony
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 06:10 pm |
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Hi,
I'm new here. I'm 21 and attracted to both sexes. I'm not a Christian but I've recently been considering converting, but there doesn't seem to be any clear verdict on whether people like me are accepted. I don't want to convert until I know. So am I right and there is no correct "answer", yet? I feel like its difficult for me to consider accepting Jesus if I won't be accepted by the Christian community.
thanks
____________________
god bless ^____^
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truthseeker
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 07:22 pm |
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Hi Ceremony,
What is it that has caused you to consider Christianity?
I believe that there may be a foundational difference in definition that could hamper or cause misunderstanding in our discussion of your questions. If you believe that your same sex attraction is something that you were born with and is acceptable, in God's view as expressed in the Bible, to act upon, and are not willing to consider that it is an impulse which may have arisen due to life circumstances and/or media influence, which could be re-learned, then we won't have much to talk about. Sure, you can find a few denominations who are happy to endorse individual preferences over the teaching of the Bible, but they would leave you lost and deceived, as you are now. It would make no sense for God to have forbidden something over which we are utterly unable to exercise control.
I am a mother of three. Young children can be very exasperating at times, and there might be times when a parent is attracted to the idea of wringing their neck or holding a pillow over a screaming child's face to stop the ear-piercing noise, but it would be wrong to act upon that feeling. We might feel inclined to punch someone who is rude to us, but that is assault and is punishable under law. Just because our country no longer prosecutes homosexual activity does not mean that it is okay in God's eyes.
That being said, we do not have to clean up our act before accepting Jesus as Savior--indeed we cannot, nor can we live sin-free ever after. True Christians should accept you as a baby Christian who still needs to grow up in your relationship with Christ, but do not expect Bible-believing Christians to turn a blind eye to sinful sexual behavior, either heterosexual or homosexual. The Bible teaches that if someone is participating in sin, that we are to lovingly and supportively approach them and urge them to turn away from it. If they refuse, (not if they are trying but slip,) then we are to disassociate them from our fellowship.
It is not those who say they are believers and still sin who are hypocrites, (for we all do that,) but those who deny that what they are doing is sinful, when the Bible clearly says that it is.
The good news is that many, many people have escaped the lies of SSA. If you are ready to consider that possibility, I suggest this article.
http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/homosexualityrecovery
Also, the organization
Love Won Out
provides support and resources for people struggling with SSA.
Please feel free to ask sincere questions, but if you aren't interested in what the Bible says about your impulses, you will not be satisfied here.
TruthSeeker
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ceremony
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Posted: Fri Jan 23rd, 2009 07:38 pm |
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thanks for such a straightforward and informative response. i am conflicted about a few things here and i feel like i'm being told 2 different things. on one hand, god is all-forgiving and ready to accept you with all of your sins. but on the other hand, sinful acitivity (in my case loving both sexes) is looked down upon not only by the community but god himself. I don't understand how I can at once be accepted and rejected. would I go to hell?
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god bless ^____^
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truthseeker
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 04:47 am |
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Hi Ceremony,
The Christian world view, as gleaned from Genesis through Revelation, is not simple to summarize in a nutshell, and while I have been a believer for 30 years, I am no Bible scholar. I will do my best to try and address the questions you raise, but need to try and fill in some background. I think that Love Won Out has a means of direct contact with those who have faced these questions personally. You might also find
Exodus Global Alliance
helpful. At the time that I chose to follow Christ, I was a young teen and had not become attached to behaviors I knew would be in opposition to God's Word. At this point in my life, I think that I struggle more with sins of omission than sins of commission, though that wayward tongue can slip its bridle from time to time.
From the time that Adam and Eve broke humanity's perfect fellowship with God with the first sin, hell has been the default destination for each person a soon as they are capable of understanding that sin separates them from a holy God. It is God's holiness that is incompatible with sin being in His presence, but His love that made a way, Jesus, to be punished in order to cleanse sin for those who will believe and ask. I think that people often ask the wrong question. "What have I done that is bad enough to be sent to Hell for?" The correct question, however, should be, "What have I done that is worthy of a holy God allowing me to spend eternity with Him?" The bad news is that the answer to the first question is "one single sin," and to the second question is "nothing." The good news is that Jesus confers His acceptability to God to those who trust Him to do so.
There are, therefore, essentially two different aspects to forgiveness--the forgiveness of our overall sinful nature that separates us from God, salvation, and the forgiveness we seek regularly as we then struggle against our flesh seeking to become conformed to Christ's likeness, which is not completed in life on Earth. The book of Romans chapters six and seven speak a lot about this inner conflict. Should we sin freely after salvation so God can pour out more of his grace? Wouldn't that be presumptuous? Nonetheless, we, like the apostle Paul, find ourselves doing the evil we don't want to hurt God by doing, and neglect to do the good that gives God joy.
I believe that there are sincere believers on both sides of the issue of the permanence of salvation. While I fall on the side of understanding that the Bible teaches security of sincere repentance, my love for my Savior restrains any desire to live in open rebellion to Him and still try to claim His name. I did sin sexually with my husband for several months prior to our marriage, but never denied that it was sin, in fact made some efforts at stopping, which didn't have long term success. The problem with a lot of sin is that it does not immediately repulse us the way it does God, but 1 Corinthians 10:13 teaches that God always provides a way of escape, though He never forces us to take it. Knowing that what we were doing was wrong, we still chose to do it. The sense of restored fellowship with God once we were married was a tremendous relief.
Unfortunately for your situation, despite how activists are attempting to redefine marriage, (and some even try to twist Scripture to permit it,) God established the nature of the family in Genesis 2:24. "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh." God did not say to be united to any human with whom you desired a life-long commitment. Having been married for 25 years, I submit that God gave us a beautiful experience in the union of husband and wife to be one flesh, and that anything less is like a cubic zirconium next to a diamond. Sadly, the media has reduced what God gave us as an amazing physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual union to a mere physical recreational activity.
I don't know if you have had a chance to read through the Gospel of John, but I highly recommend it. A genuine new birth such as Jesus speaks of in chapter three may not leave you without temptation, but should spur your mind and heart toward a desire to do that which pleases Him, and refrain from that for which he suffered an agonizing torture and death. If you have not seen the movie "The Passion of the Christ," it is a vivid portrayal of the depth of God's desire to make it possible for at least some of humanity to be reunited with Him, and just how high a price He was willing to pay to do so.
Hell is a horrific place, and I wouldn't want my worst enemy to go there. While fear of it may be what turns a person toward Christ, I would hope that it would ultimately be reciprocal love that would lead them to trust and follow Him.
I'm not sure if this is a good analogy, (since few analogies are perfect,) to try to explain the appearance of conflict between God's forgiveness and His insistence that we pursue righteousness, but I'll try it. Some of the parallels may seem unflattering, but they are not intended to be disrespectful. If a kitten were born in the woods where there were foxes, wolves and the like, it would be facing certain death. If you came across it before it met its demise, but it wouldn't let you get close enough to it to take it to your home where it would be safe, you would be sad, but it would have the freedom it thinks it desires. (You could trap it, but then it would be your prisoner, not your thankful adoptee. If it sees that you are kind, offering food, perhaps, it might trust you enough to let you take it home. Would you not then take it to the vet for shots, flea bath, and worm treatment etc.? Would it recognize that these seeming torments were administered out of your love, or if it could speak, would it tell you that it has had fleas ever since it could remember, and it would rather have them than endure a flea bath? Only afterwards could it truly begin to appreciate its freedom from the bites and itching of the parasites. Hopefully the balance of food, water, and a warm, dry refuge would put the vet visit out of its mind. Even with the tenderest of care, however, it might choose to dart out the door, exhibiting remnants of its feral nature. At that point, however, it would be your cat in your heart, and you would do everything you could to find it again. Even if it hid, but returned to your door a while later, could you reject it for its ingratitude? As much as you love it, there are many things that you would not want it to do because you know that it is bad for it. It gives up some of what it perceives as freedom in order to enjoy the love and security of your home. Trusting God may feel like loss of freedom at first, the initial treatment for the infestations of the wild may be very uncomfortable, and even regular checkups may not be favorite times, but the long-term relationship and eternal home in Heaven are worth it to me.
Had my boyfriend said to me, "I would love to marry you, but you might want to know that I have had a subscription to Playboy since I was thirteen, and I plan to maintain it, so if you marry me you'll just have to deal with that," I dare say we would not have gotten married. On the other hand, he actually did admit the subscription, but he assured me that the fake did not compare with the real and that it would no longer be a part of his life, so I married him. Many years down the road, he succumbed to the temptation, but when confronted with it he asked for my forgiveness, and I gave it with love, only desiring that our relationship be healed. Had he taken the "deal with it" attitude at that point, I'm not sure what I would have done, any more than I would want to know what God would do were I, as a believer, to thumb my nose at him with unrepentant sin for an extended period of time.
I guess the crux of the matter is whether or not you are prepared to agree with God's written word to mankind, the Bible, that you were not designed for sexual intimacy with the same sex, even if you can not yet imagine how breaking out of that unhealthy behavior pattern may be accomplished. It is your willingness to surrender all aspects of your life, as best you can as you grow in faith, that God is looking for as you choose to trust Jesus to save you from your general sin nature.
I hope you will forgive me if I have stuck my foot in my mouth, and seek out the other resources I mentioned which will direct you to those who have been where you are and can probably explain things better than I have.
Praying for you...
TruthSeeker
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ceremony
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 10:17 am |
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Thank you for the prayers and such an eloquent response. Just out of curiosity are you a preacher or do you work within a clergy in some way? You've explained things very well, I think the next step for me is to research the links you provided.
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god bless ^____^
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truthseeker
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Posted: Sat Jan 24th, 2009 11:47 am |
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Hi Ceremony,
I'm so glad you found it helpful, and hope that the links help further still.
No, I am just a wife and mom whose illusion of a "perfect" marriage was disrupted four years ago with a discovery of porn viewing. Thankfully we have worked through that, and our marriage is stronger than ever, but I truly believe that some of the good that God has brought out of it is a compassion not just for hurting spouses, but for those trapped in the lies the world and media propogate about sexuality.
May your search be fruitful and rewarding, and I would certainly be interested in how things go.
TruthSeeker
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Paulos
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Posted: Mon Jan 26th, 2009 05:45 pm |
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Ceremony,
Welcome to the Blazing Grace website with your questions. I will weigh in to support Truthseeker, who is always modest about her biblical-theological background. As a professor in a theological seminary, I will echo the gist of her replies.
First, to address your question about being accepted by God yet needing to change. God forgives sinners the moment they turn to him in repentance and faith, and accepts them in the sense that they gain full status as members of his family. However, he doesn't leave sinners in their sorry state. Being holy himself, he requires absolute holiness of his people as well. Together with forgiveness and adoption, he also bestows on a repentant sinner his Holy Spirit as an inner presence to engender supernatural life and stimulate a process of renewal that will culminate in a final resurrection from the dead at the end of time. This progressive renewal moves one toward a wholly new pattern of behavior. So God accepts us for the sake of Christ our savior, but doesn't leave us as we are in ourselves. He takes us as we are, but doesn't leave us there.
Would a bisexual person be accepted in the church? It depends on what is meant by acceptance. One who agrees with the Bible that homosexuality is an aberration from the moral norm and wants help and support in the massive struggle for personal holiness should certainly find people in the church who can offer the kind of love and friendship, including healthy, satisfying same-sex friendship, that will be the necessary framework for healing past deprivations and wounds that predisposed one to homosexual needs. The church is a society of people in "recovery" from sins of every sort and homosexual behavior isn't special in that regard.
Unfortunately the issue has been thrust into the limelight, however, by the militant gay/lesbian lobby. This movement aims to rewrite the moral code to suit its practice. The church has become a target because the church continues to bear witness, on the basis of divine revelation in scripture, to a transcendent moral order that isn't subject to human manipulation. Challenged again and again to change the rules, the church has been put in the position of having to say No again and again, because as human beings we have no authority to alter what God has said on the subject. This No is turned by the gay lobby into a charge that homosexuals aren't accepted, because they lay it down that nothing short of a revision to the rules can count as acceptance. The noisier the gays are in playing the media, the greater the public relations disaster for the church.
If you decide to trust Jesus and join a church, you may be wise to move with caution in seeking individuals with whom to share your concerns. In today's climate, not all appreciate the distinction between the pastoral approach called for by people with genuine needs, and the battle for moral truth in the public sector.
Last edited on Tue Jan 27th, 2009 03:17 pm by Paulos
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truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Jan 27th, 2009 02:24 pm |
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Hi Ceremony,
Pure Intimacy
may also have some helpful information/resources.
Paulos brought up a point that I had forgotten to make, but is very important. Unfortunately, not all believers keep in perspective that God does not view sin as having any hierarchy, as humans often mistakenly do, so neglect to practice compassion. You will likely find that there are congregations as a whole which do better and worse with being supportive through your questions and struggles. Please do not give up on "Christians" even if some do not live it well. It is the Bible that is true and reliable, not how any of us who claim the name of Christ bumblingly live it out.
Our youngest has found himself in the situation of coping with family members of a friend who are living in a lesbian relationship. Unfortunately, despite our eforts as parents, he remains viewing the world in black and white, perplexed by shades of gray such as putting oneself in someone else's shoes. I have had to remind him when he has been harsh toward his friend's mom, that if I had lived her life, I could not guarantee that I might not have made the same choices. Thankfully, though, the challenges of our pasts do not have to define who we choose to become, but the road may not be an easy one.
TruthSeeker
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