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truthseeker
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 11:53 pm |
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In another thread, the inclination of resisting what we perceive as others' attempts to exercise control over us was raised, and I wanted to explore it further without hijacking that thread.
I was reading a book a while back called A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23. One of the first points the author makes is that in order for Christ to be our Shepherd, we must first acknowledge his sovereign authority/qualifications for that position. I think that one of the most important aspects of God's desire to have a relationship with us is His love. If we do not believe that God loves us, and that any commands He gives us are for our benefit, then we will view Him as a control freak who get some sick thrill out of dominating us.
Rebellion against a tyrant is understandable, but against one who is exponentially wiser than us, and loves us sacrificially, is terribly sad.
Satan's pride lead him to rebel. Tempting Eve and Adam to do the same, set in motion original sin with which we all struggle.
Sexual sin is only one area in which we may rebel against God's perfect will, but each of us, every day, makes decisions, some more deliberately than others, and some with more profound consequences than others, not to live life by god's design, even when we have professed to yield our lives to God through Christ. Though we say that we desire to glorify God with our lives, we are still inclined to resist even the Holy Spirit when He brings to our attention, in that still, small voice, that we are outside of God's will. And should another fallible human dare to bring a sin to our attention, our hackles really go up, even if they are right. Our natural reaction to criticism is to ask: "Who do you think you are to judge me? Let me list some of your flaws, just in case you are experiencing a delusion of perfection."
Ironically, in many instances, we criticize others simply for not doing things how we do them, since part of our fallen state is to be self-centered, as though we were God. The process of sanctification leads us toward discerning between lovingly encouraging one another to be conformed to the image of Christ, rather than demanding that they be conformed to our own image.
It is certainly challenging to recognize what role God would have us take in encouraging someone we love, especially our spouse, to break free of chains of sin/addiction as strong and as deeply personal as sexual impurity. Perhaps, though, if spouses could seek to communicate their support, and addicts would try to receive it as a more tangible expression of God's desire that we honor Him with our bodies, instead of control/criticism, accountability could be viewed as a blessing from one God has brought in to our lives to love us and help us draw closer to Him.
Needless to say, the anguish that spouses experience upon discovery of pornography/adultery can certainly interfere with being able to communicate support lovingly, and the more resistent an addict is to taking the steps necessary to end the behavior, the more it will become a power struggle. But ultimately, is it truly a power struggle between spouses, or between the believer and God?
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 01:51 am |
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truthseeker wrote:
In another thread, the inclination of resisting what we perceive as others' attempts to exercise control over us was raised, and I wanted to explore it further without hijacking that thread.
...
Perhaps, though, if spouses could seek to communicate their support, and addicts would try to receive it as a more tangible expression of God's desire that we honor Him with our bodies, instead of control/criticism, accountability could be viewed as a blessing from one God has brought in to our lives to love us and help us draw closer to Him.
Needless to say, the anguish that spouses experience upon discovery of pornography/adultery can certainly interfere with being able to communicate support lovingly, and the more resistent an addict is to taking the steps necessary to end the behavior, the more it will become a power struggle. But ultimately, is it truly a power struggle between spouses, or between the believer and God?
I, (Dennis) added the bold emphasis to highlight what I mainly want to respond to.
Hi Truthseeker,
I'm happy to see this thread because I have been feeling really burdened in connection with my participation in the other one. (I wish I was wise and discerning enough to know whether that feeling was coming from the Holy Spirit or from the enemy).
OK, so here's the "first-take" of this confused-abuser, (though pronounced-righteous person)'s response to some of what's associated with how I read what you have written:
I think you are saying that it would be great (in a perfect world) if someone like myself were to be capable of interpreting his/her spouses offer (or insistence?) to help in my recovery by checking up on me ... as a mutually uplifting opportunity for constructive accountability through which we could both be better able to recognize how much God loves us and we love each other?
If that's what you are saying, then I guess I agree in principle ... however I don't consider this anything even approaching a perfect world ... and for me anyway, I don't even think it's possible that it could ever become close enough to be a perfect world to even be of much value as a dream.
Just speaking for myself (which is all I suppose I should ever do here), I don't think having my wife as an accountability partner could ever be constructive. (I tried it for awhile and I got tired of seeing my wife suffer the pain - which she described as something like being stabbed in the heart -- each time I was honest enough to tell her I had "slipped").
I don't like seeing the one I love suffer such pain over and over again - so unless and/or until I find some way to very significantly improve my "track record" ... I will never again take the chance of putting her through such repeated sessions of my honest disclosure followed by her agony.
(Sorry for such a doom and gloom response ... I do like what you say about how we often want people to be like we are -- for instance there were many years when I wanted my wife to have sex pretty much as often as I wanted ... so much that I tried to "exercise control over her" by trying to convince her I was offering her help toward acting more like the Bible says a good wife should. -- Needless to say, I don't think it worked out in a way that honored either her or me or God's word.)
-DennisLast edited on Sat Mar 6th, 2010 03:27 am by dennis1soil
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truthseeker
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Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 02:46 am |
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Yes, Dennis, striking the best balance of what to share with your wife is not easy, and from what I have read, is usually best dependent upon her preference of what to know, with a male accountability partner for more detailed accountability.
I was referring more to boundaries that might seem controlling, such as filters, financial accountability, if expenses have been involved in the addiction, accounting for time, such as being late, etc.
No, it certainly isn't a perfect world, and as I mentioned, the injury to the relationship and the addiction can affect the ability of both spouses to respond with any degree of spiritual maturity. Addiction itself probably interferes with spiritual growth.
TruthSeeker
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 06:06 pm |
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truthseeker wrote:
In another thread, the inclination of resisting what we perceive as others' attempts to exercise control over us was raised, and I wanted to explore it further without hijacking that thread.
...
Needless to say, the anguish that spouses experience upon discovery of pornography/adultery can certainly interfere with being able to communicate support lovingly, and the more resistent an addict is to taking the steps necessary to end the behavior, the more it will become a power struggle. But ultimately, is it truly a power struggle between spouses, or between the believer and God?
truthseeker wrote:
I was referring more to boundaries that might seem controlling, such as filters, financial accountability, if expenses have been involved in the addiction, accounting for time, such as being late, etc.
Truthseeker,
I'm sorry I didn't respond earlier more specifically to what you were referring to (I didn't quite understand). Actually I can't speak directly from personal experience here because my wife never really expressed an interest in "keeping tabs on me" so to speak. I have personally installed multiple filters on my computer in (marginally successful) attempts to help keep me away from sites I should not be going to (they do help to keep peripheral stuff from accidentally appearing in searches etc...). Actually I have even set things up so a list of all the web sites I visited was sent to a email which I told my wife about (and I set up my computer so I couldn't stop that from happening) ... as far as I know she never did sign on to that email. As far as "expenses involved in the addiction" are concerned, I suspect I've probably spent less on this addiction (in total) - throughout all approx 50 years or so - then what it has cost us for one of our nice nights out -- i.e. say to a concert in big city, nice restaurant, and the night in a motel before returning home the next day. As far as time is concerned, my wife likes doing things by herself, (she works a lot running her own business and plays computer games to relax, etc...). In the earlier days of our marriage I worked way too many hours, but in the last 10 years or so I can't remember her ever complaining about me not being involved enough in her life and/or the lives of our kids and grandkids. Oh, - I should have also mentioned - as far as expenses are concerned - for our full marriage of over 34 years, she has always wrote almost all checks and had complete unhindered access to all our assets - she either would or could certainly be able to know if I had spent over say 50 or 75 dollars on anything she might not have expected me to spend and/or we had not talked about beforehand. Actually if the bank were to see some document which I signed personally, they might think someone had forged my signature (that is, if it looked much different then the very close way my wife signs my name)!
OK, I just wanted you to understand some of my background.
In the other thread when I referred to at least one time I have wanted (and probably did) go "act out" just to prove (at least to myself) that my wife shouldn't think she can "control me" ... I remember one specific time that happened (maybe 2 years or so ago now), I think she was about to leave for some trip (perhaps to visit her ailing mother) and she reminded me that she would be asking me how I'd done while she was away. Now that might seem to you as not much of a reason to think she was of the opinion that she was keeping me "under her thumb" - and if so, you would of course be correct. Now as I look back on the situation I don't think she was trying to "control me" at all (I think she's pretty much always known that would probably not work) - most likely the situation was along the lines of the ideal I think you are talking about, where a wife genuinely wants to help her husband become a better man. However, and I'm embarrassed to say so, but even in that relatively innocent situation where she was not acting in any bad way at all, my first feeling (I wont say "thought" because I'm almost certain I would not have consciously allowed such a "thought" as my intellect usually reminds me: "she only want's the best for me" ... I definitely remember a strong "urge" to go prove I'm not going to allow myself to be controlled, certainly not by a subtle technique like that).
I mentioned something kind of like what I want to say now in an older thread (yes, the one I referred to in the "other thread" named something like: "I don't understand"). It seems like there may be some parallel where the apostle Paul was saying something to the effect that "the strength of sin is in the law". For instance, I don't feel a rebellious urge (at least not against my wife anyway) when she leaves for a trip if she doesn't remind me that upon her return she will be asking "how I did". In a way (for me anyway) it seems like "accountability" has some similarities with "law" in that it reminds me: "there is a rule here and you are not supposed to break it". Sometimes what seems like almost an instinctual gut-response springs up from deep within me like: "oh yeah, well just watch me!" (OK, so actually in this case, the "watch me" part of the common phrase doesn't really fit)! .. so perhaps better phrased: "oh yeah, well we'll see about that!".
That thing about the law as compared with Grace is one of the reasons I first came to this forum, I was intrigued by the name "Blazing Grace". I know law/(accountability?) just simply does not work for me. I still think maybe if I can ever seize onto a better understanding of Grace perhaps I will have finally found what I have always been looking for. Maybe then I'll see my "track record" improved enough so I won't have to worry about my wife needlessly suffering so much pain if/when we both voluntarily and enthusiastically expand the depth of our relationship by entering into the daring realm of spouse to spouse mutual accountability.
Well - There's a whole lot more inside me I want to say - but I have some other things I should be doing now and the specific words are not coming smoothly enough yet for me to even attempt to tie the various themes together effectively.
Maybe I'll say more later about why I inserted that word "mutual" in the sentence where I referred to "spouse to spouse mutual accountability".
(With God, perhaps there's not a need for the "mutual" concept in our accountability relationship ... but I think between two humans - no matter what our prior experiences - it's likely there'll be better success when the concept of "mutual" accompanies "accountability".)
Thanks for listening.
-DennisLast edited on Sat Mar 6th, 2010 07:07 pm by dennis1soil
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 09:22 am |
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As you know, it is seldom possible for me to be very brief about anything. But I'm going to try really hard in this post for some level of success in that regard as I say something about the word "mutual" in "mutual accountability".
First, I'll be honest about some kind of automatic type of reaction I've felt spontaneously rise in me in lines with "Rebellion and criticism" when I hear someone mention something in regard to my addiction.
I've found I'm much more likely to receive what is said seriously and not experience a spontaneous spirit of rebellion when I know the person who I feel is criticizing me has "walked a mile in my shoes" so to speak.
[Truthseeker ... When you were choosing the title for this thread, I suspect you used the word "criticism" referring to part of the rebellious response of the one hearing about their sin, rather than a characteristic the sinner attributes to the one from whom he or she is hearing about their sins (e.g. God and/or his or her wife or husband). See how words can be inverted and/or distorted by an addict!]
I think God must understand this idea of how it's easier for me to take criticism from someone I think can identify with me. That understanding could be one reason why God decided to become a human being. For instance, I'm thinking of when Peter objected to Jesus' washing his feet when he said he should be washing Jesus' feet. Recently when I visited one of my daughter's family at a school they began in Africa, for the first time I wore sandals regularly. Maybe Jesus was walking in sandals like the ones I wore.
Even though Jesus was a man and "in every way was tempted like I am tempted" (probably not exact translation) ... still, unfortunately I questioned the "in every way" part. I've always wondered how Jesus could identify with how I feel after I have sinned yet again and have not mastered the sin that so easily besets me.
I realize as Jesus was on the cross his words about how he felt His father had forsaken Him most likely came from the fact that he somehow took my sins upon himself. So I guess in some way he did feel something like how I feel after I have sinned. Yet even still, I'm just don't "feel" how he could relate to the desperation I feel as I realized I've returned again to the pig's pen trying to be sustained by their feed, while knowing there God made a way for me to eat steak and potatoes.
When I hear another person who I understand has also battled addictive sin bring to my attention something in regard to my sinful and addictive behavior, then I "feel" the aspect of the "he walked a mile in my shoes" idea which seemed not quite clear about my perception of Jesus' experience. In contrast, even if I were to hear the exact same words spoken by someone who has no experience with losing battles in the sin addiction wars, that crucial idea is lacking. I think subconsciously I justify turning a deaf or rebellious ear by using that old "she just can't understand what I am going through" routine.
In a case like mine where my wife is not much of a sinner when compared with me, the "she can identify" idea is just not there.
Perhaps if I knew she was either currently involved and/or at one time in her life she had been addicted to some sin (maybe not necessarily the same sin as I am being mastered by), then that might improve the odds of me being able to calmly and respectfully listen to her when her questions might expose embarrassing aspects of my addiction.
My principle accountability partner relationship (since we don't live in a perfect world) I think needs this "walked a mile in my shoes" aspect. Ideally, if I could ask her how she's doing, as well as being asked by her how I'm doing -then I think the chances for our successful accountability partnership would be improved greatly.
-Dennis
(Well unfortunately - as far as being brief is concerned ... I hoping for better luck next time!)
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TM2
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 02:01 pm |
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I've found I'm much more likely to receive what is said seriously and not experience a spontaneous spirit of rebellion when I know the person who I feel is criticizing me has "walked a mile in my shoes" so to speak.
This is part of why the 12-step program works. It's addicts helping addicts. We can understand one another's feelings, and we can see through one another's BS.
While certainly it's necessary for us to be honest with our spouses, I agree that working with people who know our situation from the inside is critical. I also think it's critical to be able to work with people with whom we can share every detail of our behavior when we need to, including things that our spouses prefer not to know and that we might have trouble sharing with them.
Now at the risk of being a bit challenging, what are you doing to put this conviction into practice? How are you working with other addicts in daily life, or what are you doing to find other addicts and support groups to provide the inside understanding and support that your wife can't? Because your program really has two parts - not being completely open with your wife, and being completely open with another addict. Someone who is only doing the first part is just rationalizing not being accountable at all, isn't he? Tell me that's not where you are.
Tim M.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 03:51 pm |
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Tim,
Sorry, but I cannot tell you that's not where I am (not without lying anyway). Wait a second ... all these "not" words may have me confused (did that sentence involve a triple negative?).
Let me try to be more clear ... I am not accountable to anyone (I was tempted to add, "other than God" ... but given my previous post, you already know, though I consider Him to have "walked a mile in my shoes" for the most part, He doesn't completely "qualify" as far as being a fellow addict.
I realize how big a problem this is, and I even spoke with my wife about just a couple of days ago (not only in relation to Porn, but for almost all practical reasons - for my work, again I am very close to having no accountability for what I do - or don't do - in that regard). I told her, for the most part I am a man with no accountability - and that can't be good!
I think I've mentioned some about my situation in posts here before as it relates to finding anyone to whom I can be accountable. In a nutshell, I have tried many times to find someone and it has never even showed any hint of working for either of us. I suspect the experience has been even worse for the pour souls who have said they would meet with me on a regular basis so we could "hold each other accountable" ... after reading so many of my posts - perhaps you could understand what they were getting themselves into.
I can't take the time now to get into the subject in much detail - maybe this evening some more though.
I live "out in the country" about 35 miles from the nearest Wal-Mart in Missouri (that's a good indicator of how remotely located I am). I think I would have to drive to the Kansas City area (maybe 2 and a half hour drive one way) in order to attend then meetings of an active 12-step group dealing with sexual addiction. I suspect I could find a closer AA meeting place - though still at least a 30 minute drive, though more likely an hour drive.
I guess the AA route might be workable, though I guess I've had a difficult seeing how I could feel that "he's been where I am" identification with a person who has struggled with alcohol but not sexual issues. The reason I suppose is because I feel like the sexual drive is intertwined in a more "natural" level with who we are. I'm afraid an accountability partner who only struggles with alcohol might feel like I am somehow looking down on them and I would not wish that on anyone brave or crazy enough to try to work with me. Mainly I think it would be hard for me to understand his cravings.
I should probably say that I have never understood one of the things I have heard most about the "why" people like me get addicted to porn. I think on the homepage of blazinggrace there is a link to an article with a title saying something to the effect that porn use is not primarily about sex but rather a searching for love. I'm sorry, but to me that sounds almost more unbelievable than I suspect most people a lot of what I write.
As I have said in a post I authored here in the last couple of weeks, I have sought after "the feeling" of sexual arousal - which accompanies viewing the unclothed body of an attractive member of the opposite sex. Throughout all of my life I have been smothered with love. Overall, I experienced great love throughout my wonderful childhood, my dad has been an excellent father - I married at 18 and went straight from living at home to living with my incredibly wonderful wife - and she and our kids have loved me sacrificially ever since. In comparison with most guys, I have have received way, way, way more than my share of love. So I just can't buy (for my specific situation anyway) this idea that I'm just looking for love in one of the wrong places.
OK, sorry about that.
I didn't mention all the bad experiences I ran into with trying to meet with groups of men in two of the churches around here ... I think the assumption must be something like ... if a guys goes to church regularly, then why would anyone assume he would need to be in an accountability group .... (aren't those just for alcoholics ... maybe sexual perverts?).
No, actually that last comment wasn't completely fair - but it's true I've met personally with two of the three pastors of churches in the area and a couple of the leading layman .. for the express purpose of locating a man with whom I could share accountability in regard to porn. But outside of something like a 10 week class on "men's issues" (with only 1 class about things relating to sexuality) nothing of any lasting value has come of it.
I'm out of time for now.
-Dennis
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 12:35 am |
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Hi again Tim,
It's after work now so I have a bit more time.
I probably should have mentioned in the post you quoted - that I have only a small amount of data from which to support what I was saying. By that, at least within the last maybe 4 or 5 years - Your words are the ones from which I have benefited most, as far as helping me to examine myself (and cutting through layers of BS).
The thing that prompted me to write those words I think has been the "spontaneous" emotions I've noticed coming over me as I read challenging posts. I notice a big difference based on the author - when I see the words are from you - I don't notice as big of an "automatic annoyance" factor.
As I look back throughout my life, I can't remember more than a couple of times another man has "shared" with me that he even has a problem with porn. I attended a 5 day workshop which deals primarily with porn and/or other sexually related addictive behavior - and during that time several of us (maybe 5 or 6 guys per group) spoke with each other, but other than that pretty much nothing else besides exchanging posts here at this site.
After reading some of your posts a few years ago where you were also encouraging the 12-step process, I did some internet searches for places where such are available - and that's why I mentioned Kansas City. At two fairly large churches (maybe 3 hundred in Sunday morning worship service) I have contacted multiple staff people at multiple times trying to learn if some "under the radar" 12 step type group might be available, or at least some group of men meeting regularly - when the answer has been "No" I asked if someone would start one - nothing has come of it. I even stood up at a "brotherhood breakfast" or something to that effect and told everyone I have a problem with porn that I would like help in solving -- probably embarassed by the head pastor and the assistant pastor at the time, since I mentioned I had spoken with both about getting something started and since nothing happened now I was asking the lay men as well. The good news was that 10 meeting men's issues thing (on successive Sunday evenings) - but noting like a 12-step program.
Sorry for going on and on again ...
I'll bring this to a close (and skip editing - so I can use the time to do some more internet searches, perhaps there is a group meeting in a fairly large closer city (only an hour's drive). Or if I'm really fortunate, maybe something as stared in one of the very small towns which are a half-hour's drive from where I live.
-Dennis
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TM2
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 01:35 am |
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Good plan. Other things to try might be
- Online or phone meetings. The various S-fellowships (SAA, SA, SLAA, SCA all have these.
- Calling the contact people for meetings in KC. They may know people in your direction who attend meetings in KC with whom you could connect, or they may know about newer meetings that aren't in the Internet lists.
- If you're up to it, you could start a meeting. I'll admit that I find that prospect a bit daunting, and that I have not tried to do that in the closest town to where I live (a city of around 35,000 people that should be able to support a meeting).
For the record, a quick spin through the web sites shows that in Missouri or near KC in Kansas,
SAA lists meetings in Liberty and in St Louis and in Overland, KS.
SLAA has meetings in KC, Columbia, Jefferson City, University City, KIrkwood, and StL.
SA has meetings in KC, StL, and Springfield.
SCA has meetings in KC and StL.
SRA has a meeting in Columbia.
As I say, of course there may be others.
Tim M.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 01:50 am |
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OK,
I'm back now after looking for an appropriate 12-step group.
It looks like the situation is in some ways worse (for my prospects anyway) in comparison with when I looked earlier.
First I looked on sites line this http://saa-recovery.org/ and http://www.healthymind.com/s-groups.html - but I can only find meetings in St.Louis and Liberty (unfortunately still well over 2 hour drives each way).
Using the "find a meeting" function starting from http://www.aa.org and then another (better) regional AA site.
So I called three people associated with AA meetings (2 of them only 1 hour away and the third one is only a 1/2 hour's drive each way).
When I told each of the people I want to attend a 12 step program as a part of a recovery program for pornography addiction, each said they don't have anyone attending for that reason - so I asked if they knew of any 12 step meetings which would allow me to come and participate (one off the AA meetings is "open" but I think he was saying I could only listen if I attend that one). Unfortunately none of them know of any sex-addict type of 12 step programs meeting any closer than Liberty, Mo (2 hour drive).
I would think if a big church did have some type of program and if they have a web-site, and if they list the program there -- perhaps I would find it with a google search - however I haven't found anything like that yet.
-Dennis
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 02:02 am |
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Thanks Tim,
(looks like our posts crossed).
I had to look up where "Kirkwood" is, unfortunately all the cities you found are more than a 2 hour drive from where I live.
That's a good idea about talking with someone associated with a group meeting in KC though.
I'll try to find a phone number (funny you found something saying there are meetings there - as I need a while back - but a few minutes ago I didn't find any specifics ... I'll do some more searches though.
Thanks again,
-Dennis
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TM2
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 02:29 am |
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I did meeting searches at
http://sexaa.org/
http://slaafws.org/
http://sa.org/
http://sca-recovery.org/
http://www.sexualrecovery.org/
Any chance of local counselors who might either have training on sexual addictions or have groups of people working on these issues? Going to
http://www.iitap.com/find_csat.cfm
I find CSAT certified therapists in StL, O'Fallon, and Lee's Summit, MO. Folks like that might also know of local resources, even if they aren't too close.
Tim M.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 03:37 am |
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Hi again Tim,
Thanks for the links to those organizations, I suspect there may be some good information to be found using links there also.
Using those as base, the closest meetings I can find is in the same area as the only likely candidate doctor I located via: http://www.iitap.com/find_csat.cfm
(Oh, I forgot to mention that I asked the psychiatrist and the two psychologists who were the doctors I went to on an ongoing basis for a couple of years - as I told them several times I thought my anger and maybe even apparent mental strangeness was most likely related to the porn habit I kept failing to break. No luck they didn't know of anyone - or at least didn't let me know and didn't suggest that as being a good place to go. -- Now I just go to an MD to keep getting the same meds prescribed since the only good head related doctor is over an hour's drive from here.)
I checked the population of towns around me and it appears I must drive over an hour in order to reach of town with more than 9,500 population (based on 2000 census data).
Using http://www.iitap.com/find_csat.cfm, when I provided my zip code and asked for the max "radius" of 100 miles - 4 doctors were shown - however 3 of those have first names suggesting they are female (I'd rather see the male). He's about an hour and 50 minutes away (based on mapquest directions). I left a voice message on his machine - so if he returns my call, maybe he will be able to suggest a group and/or I suppose I might even go see him if it turns out my current optimism isn't justified.
However, as I think I mentioned in some post -- I feel more positive at this time then I have ever felt in any of the previous 500 plus times I have said "never again".
Still - I recognize I need to have some kind of accountability structure -- actually I have realized that for over 10 years, but getting that to actually happen has been where my failure has been evident. -- I did meet with my brother close to every week at a Pizza place about a half hour from each of our houses (mid-way). However that was in the height of my unmedicated mental illness days, and I think meeting with me too a big toll on him emotionally (given what I accidentally overheard my wife saying over the phone one day). He has moved now though so we can't resume our meetings now when I am easier to be with.
<tangent mode = on>
(Before I started taking "mental medicine" I was so zealous about helping people who have been downtrodden as victims of injustice, I couldn't hardly allow anyone who professes strong religious affections - he's a preacher - to get a word in edgewise -- I was obsessed with finding a way to see God's will happen on earth so the truly broken people on earth would actually experience physical tangible real-life HELP, rather than folks like me just praying for them but not DOing anything to loose their "real" physical chains. Interesting though, even considering the thousands of righteous indignation types of words I uttered, I didn't do hardly any tangible thing myself! Kind of reminds me of how I would so fervently tell my wife and daughters of my great love for them -- while I almost never washed a single dirty dish - since I was "helping" them through reminding them they needed to get them washed!
<Tangent mode = OFF>
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 02:40 pm |
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This morning I left a message in the voice mailbox of one of the guys associated with this desert streams ministry:
http://www.desertstream.org/Groups/1000040179/Desert_Stream_Ministries/Looking_For_Help/Find_a_Group/Find_a_Group.aspx
(Still looks like close to a 2 hour drive from here, but who knows? Maybe he will know of something happening closer to where I live, even though I don't see anything listed on the website.)
-Dennis
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TM2
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 05:14 pm |
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Good.
Maybe 2 hours isn't that impossible? I drive a little over an hour each way to meetings twice a week and to church once a week (or more often in Lent and for other events). The driving can be a time for reflection, for prayer, for meditation, for listening to recovery-related talks, etc. Sometimes I'm not able to drive for medical reasons and my wife will drive me to meetings. This ends up being a good opportunity for us to talk with one another without distractions. Obviously two hours is a different proposition than 1, but still, compared with how long many people commute every day, it may not be a complete show-stopper. You'd drive that far to treat cancer, right? Why not drive that far to treat addiction?
Tim M.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 06:11 pm |
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Yes, I understand what you say about the long drive.
I drove over an hour one evening each week to a church based course that met something like 12 weeks or so - that course dealt with getting delivered from various forms of spiritual bondage. At the time I was way too picky about how they interpreted scriptures, maybe it could have helped - but I think they consider me a failure (of course the program never fails, when things don't work out - it's always the fault of the student!) I don't want to back there anymore though - metaphorically speaking, "got the T-shirt" (but it didn't fit)".
Strange - I'm using a different computer and the lines don't wrap in this box. (maybe Mozilla related?)
Well I must go for now - the doctor I called is a really good guy - among other things he has suggested the "Recovery Start Kit" written by Patrick Carnes - who I think I have heard you say good things about.
For example see:
http://gentlepath.com/blog/?p=26
He has provided some other really good advice - maybe I'll share some later (in case there are other guys who live in rural areas).
-Dennis
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 08:14 pm |
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A very wise man once told me:
"You can take time to be healthy or you can take time to be sick. The choice is yours."
At the time he was talking with me about physical exercise preventing physical illness. I think the same can be said of mental health / mental illness.
I would also question how much time has been wasted pursing this addiction and how that compares to the pursuit of an intensive treatment regimen. I smell "excuse," "rationalization," "self-delusion."
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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TM2
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Posted: Wed Mar 17th, 2010 09:35 pm |
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It's certainly true that if I compare the time I spend now driving to and from meetings and in other recovery-related activity with the time I used to spend acting out, it doesn't seem like a big deal at all.
Tim M.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Mar 18th, 2010 09:45 am |
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Devastated Wife wrote: ...
I would also question how much time has been wasted pursing this addiction and how that compares to the pursuit of an intensive treatment regimen. I smell "excuse," "rationalization," "self-delusion."
...
(bold emphasis mine)
Devastated Wife,
I said earlier, I would still value what you say to me just as much - even if you did not answer the question I asked. Now, in retrospect however, I'm thinking I may have been deluding myself.
I still don't know if you have ever been addicted, but I've been assuming "probably not". Content earlier in this thread most likely explains why I was not encouraged by your words about time usage - even while I am encouraged by very similar words coming from Tim.
I'm especially not encouraged by words using imagery suggesting I reek of some odor. What is being suggested by the short sentence may or may not true, however, the way I receive the sentence in effect renders it a mute point.
If my wife were to speak to me the exact same words emboldened in the quote box, I'm almost certain the effect would be to push me away from continued recovery. It would of course be sin for me to respond in accordance with the spontaneous feelings arising in me, (which I consider to be) prompted by that choice of words. I think even the knowledge she intended such words to be a helpful, would not likely change the feeling. I'm responsible to obey God even if I feel I'm being insulted and/or goaded.
Now, I understand not all men will react the same way even when hearing exactly the same words. But, in consideration of the title of this thread, it may be of some help for me to state this man is not motivated in a positive direction by such.
-Dennis
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Thu Mar 18th, 2010 01:50 pm |
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Dennis,
I would ask you to examine your true feelings about women. It is clear we're nothing but useful objects to you. You can't stand the fact that I see directly through your self-delusions and rationalizations and that I have the temerity to call you on them. Isn't that the real issue here, Dennis? You expect a woman to bow and molly-coddle. That's not me. That will never happen.
I've not walked the proverbial mile in your shoes, so my comments have no validity in your eyes. I get that. I have walked a mile in your wife's shoes and I see right through your nonsense. The self-delusion that I see is unparalleled. I think it's important for you to realize not all women believe the lies you are telling yourself. You're not fooling anyone but yourself, Dennis......and that's the sad part of this. These threads have left my mouth agape and they infuriate me. I'm left asking myself if you are really in so deep that you don't see the lies for what they are or if you are just trying to pull the wool over our eyes with your rationalizations and deceptions. Do you really not see it? Really? I find that really hard to believe.
I'll leave it to Tim and Truthseeker to try to reason with you. I can't. That's obvious.
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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