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claire
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 07:33 pm |
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Last edited on Fri Mar 5th, 2010 09:23 pm by claire
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 08:24 pm |
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Hey Cool !
Hi Claire, I'm really happy to see you are still around!
(I was worried about you).
I want to say something which I think folks should understand about how powerful internet search engines are these days (though everyone may know this already)... If a person uses a rather unique name (like I do) then it's easy for anyone to locate what boards you post to and then read your posts.
For instance I had forgotten the exact URL address of this forum so I just now used google to look for "dennis1soil" - and in the first page of hits I see a computer board where I sometimes ask questions and various threads in this forum.
The reason I mention this ... sort of goes along with one of the reasons I spent so much time writing other posts in this topic .... Guys may be reading this thread also ... and that could conceivably include husbands of posters. Actually, not many people here have USERID's as distinctively unique as mine, so I'm not saying google would necessarily lead a husband here - however if a husband watched a wife's use of her computer as closely as some wives watch their husband's computer activities ... then I think you can see what I'm saying.
Actually it might have been a good thing for me to have read some of what my wife would have said about me and advice other wives might have given her (if she would have used a forum like this - which I suggested she might want to do). However I can imagine scenarios where perhaps some husbands who might not react in a positive way.
I don't know anything in particular - but I just thought it might be good to mention that sometimes other people who we know might sometimes read what we thought was at least somewhat "private".
-Dennis
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TM2
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 08:33 pm |
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edited to add: This was a reply to Dennis's post of 11:09 AM. It turns out much has happened in this thread since then. Apologies for the disorder.
It's a little strange to see my posts in another thread used as an argument as to why DW should temper her words, when I don't think she should.
I also think the most helpful shares always come from our own experience and involve what we ourselves have felt and have done. In this thread, I'm getting pulled into writing about what Dennis thinks DW should have written in response to a post of claire's that Dennis hasn't even read. And Dennis is concerned about how some hypothetical new member might react to DW's words to claire about a post the hypothetical newbie has never seen. That has what to do with the individual recovery of each of us, exactly? I'm getting lost. (The Buddha uses the Pali word papanca to describe what's happening in this thread. Buddhists don't think of papanca as a good thing.)
Still, I again feel a need to reply.
Dennis believes that DW should moderate her words because what she has written might cause a hypothetical newbie to feel shame, which would then strengthen his addiction. Right?
This gives DW way more power than she possesses.
One of the big problems of people who live with addicts is that they try to control the addict's behavior, believing that if they just do the right thing, then the addict will stop using, and that if they do the wrong thing, then the addict will binge. That's a delusion. Part of getting better for the people around us is letting go that delusion and accepting that they are not responsible for our actions - we are.
Dually, part of our problem is not accepting responsibility for our own addiction, but believing that we act out because of something our wives or other people do. And part of our healing is accepting that we are responsible for our own actions, and our own recovery.
Suggesting that DW speak carefully because she might induce an addict to use makes DW responsible for somebody else's addiction, and absolves the addict himself. I think that's wrong on both counts.
DW's words to claire weren't about Dennis, and they weren't about helping some hypothetical newbie get sober. Neither Dennis nor the newbie are DW's responsibility. DW's words to claire were about claire - about helping claire protect herself in a situation where she felt fear from the actions of an abusive addict. The advice wasn't to keep tabs on the addict so the addict would get better. claire can't make her addict get better. That's not within her power. The advice was to keep tabs on the addict in order to keep claire herself safe. That advice might or might not work, and it might or might not be the best approach. I pretty much have no opinion on that. It's outside my personal experience. But it was appropriate advice from one woman to another, from one survivor to another.
claire and DW are solving their problems, not ours. Their conversation doesn't have to do with us or with newbies or even very much with claire's husband. It has to do with keeping claire safe. I think we should stay out of it.
Tim M.Last edited on Fri Mar 5th, 2010 11:17 pm by TM2
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TM2
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 09:11 pm |
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Claire,
I'm not sure what's the chicken and what's the egg. I think the abuse and the addiction go together, though.
For me, the anger at my wife and kids had several sources. I was angry at them because I was angry at myself. I was angry at them to maintain distance and control - distance to keep myself and my secrets safe, and control because I couldn't control myself, so that I sought control everywhere. I think guys often show anger, too, because it's the only emotion we think is socially acceptable for men. So everything inside us comes out in that form. In a way, I think those were the surface causes of my anger.
More deeply, I was angry because if I have been wronged, if my needs are not being met within the relationship, then I can feel justified in going outside the relationship, I can feel justified in engaging in hurtful behavior, I have an excuse to act out. So I think I provoked confrontations and opportunities to show rage in order to provide excuses and opportunities for my acting out.
Then there's the issue of belittling, which I think in my case is separable from anger. My own history is one of taking refuge in the intellectual and the rational because I felt inadequate physically, socially, and sexually. If all that really matters is the life of the mind, though, and if I can manage not to show and to feel my feelings, then others can't make fun of me for my physical ineptness. So for me, being an asexual intellectual Vulcan was an important piece of my survival strategy. As a result, I looked down on everything physical, everything sexual, everything social, really. And I looked down on my wife, the reminder of those aspects of my life, of my failure to be a pure Vulcan. My wife met needs I preferred not to acknowledge, needs I blamed myself for having; and so I looked down on her, just as I looked down on those sides of myself.
Of course, I did have sexual needs, and I did want to be loved, but I felt it wrong to show these. And so I developed a hidden, secret sexual life in my porn. That this was a part of myself that needed to be hidden and about which I felt shame naturally led to the addictive cycle of using, feeling shame, then using again in part to medicate the shame.
Did my addiction cause my anger and my belittling, then? Partly, yes. Also, the anger and belittling and addiction all grew together out of my underlying lack of acceptance of myself as a whole human being, and my desire to bury my emotional and sexual side.
At least, that's how it seems to me at this point in my self-exploration. Does this make sense?
Tim M.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 09:25 pm |
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| Thank you, Tim. Your posts are very helpful, insightful....and provide comfort. Thank you.
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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claire
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 09:31 pm |
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Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:06 am by claire
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 10:20 pm |
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WARNING: SOME SEMI-GRAPHIC CONTENT.
Dear Claire,
On the horrifying sights that you've seen..............I'd like to offer several perspectives.............
1. I can relate. I found things on my husband's computer that hurt, horrified and frightened me. I am happy to report that the flashbacks of these images have all but ceased now that I am 7 months post discovery. It takes time, but they do fade.
2. When my husband blamed me for his addiction, I used the knowledge of the images stored on his computer and in his favorite links to basically destroy his claims that I was responsbile for his addiction. It's something I learned in law school. If memory serves, I said something like: "I HEREBY UNEQUIVOCALLY REFUSE DELIVERY OF ANY PORTION OF THE BLAME FOR YOUR ADDICTION. I will accept my portion of blame for the problems that exist in this marriage, however I refuse to accept any portion of the blame for the fact there are pictures of girls our daughters age, tied up with rope, professing to "want it" on your computer. You and you alone are responsible for that. HOW DARE YOU TRY TO BLAME ME FOR THAT!" The specificity of the response demonstrated the stupidity and futility of trying to blame me for his choices. He never overtly or directly blamed me again. He has switched to blaming me indirectly and covertly, but that's another topic for another day.
3. After I was done screaming at my husband, and oh mercy I did plenty of that, he did tell me that the pictures on his computer were simply for fantasy purposes and that he would never act on those images or seek to re-enact the scenes. I FOUND THAT EXTREMELY HARD TO BELIEVE to say the least and if memory serves, that precipitated more screaming on my part, and I accused him of being a lying [url=mailto:&!^&@%#(!&%]&!^&@%#(!&%(!!!!!!!!]&!^&@%#(!&%]&!^&@%#(!&%(!!!!!!!![/url] Yes, my language was a little "colorful."
Tim has been kind enough to explain that what he was telling me may have been the honest truth. Sex addicts can be very sexually repressed in real life. They would never enact the scenes from the porn. Additionally, men seem to compartmentalize things much better than women. My counselor recommended that I read the book "Men are like waffles, women are like spaghetti." Men tend to put things in little boxes...like the compartments in waffles...with no bleed over between the compartments. Fantasy is fantasy. Real life is real life. Women on the other hand are like spaghetti..........everything is intertwined and tangled....everything touches everything else. We just cannot believe they would or could look at pictures and never seek to act on them or re-enact them. I guess I cannot understand the male perspective because when I look at pictures in a magazine, I am usually trying to get ideas or spur creativity....a new recipe........a new piece of furniture........a decorating idea.......new paint color, etc. The idea that a man could look at a picture and not try to incorporate it into his life "stretches the limits of credulity" --- lawyer words for "you've got to be kidding me" but I've heard it from two trusted sources.
4. Please don't compare yourself to the images. You are a beautiful child of God, created in His image. You are perfect as you are. The images of the nip-tucked floozies may have even been digitally altered. They are not real and they should never serve as the standard by which you judge yourself or anyone else. Please, please, please.........don't go there.
I will continue to pray for you and all who have been impacted by this addiction........
My best, Devastated Wife
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 11:18 pm |
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TM2 wrote:
...
... DW's words to claire were about claire - about helping claire protect herself in a situation where she felt fear from the actions of an abusive addict. ... The advice was to keep tabs on the addict in order to keep claire herself safe. That advice might or might not work, and it might or might not be the best approach. I pretty much have no opinion on that. It's outside my personal experience. But it was appropriate advice from one woman to another, from one survivor to another.
claire and DW are solving their problems, not ours. Their conversation doesn't have to do with us or with newbies or even very much with claire's husband. It has to do with keeping claire safe. ...
Tim M.
I (Dennis) added the bold emphasis to the above extracted sentences and/or sentence fragments.
Tim, one of my concerns all along has also been along the lines of wanting Claire to be safe. Obviously I don't know much about Claire's husband (but the fact that I haven't read much if anything from other regulars mentioning the suggestions might be a bit harsh made me concerned that he could be at least as abusive as I have been at times).
I don't think it takes a very active imagination to see how an abused wife might not actually be safer if her abusive husband discovers she has unilaterally seized control of all the families assets including (but I suppose not limited to) having removed all valuable items from the house, etc...
I'll just say that when I noticed Claire's posts had pretty much all disappeared I was concerned.
-Dennis
P.S.
As far as whether it's appropriate or desired for an abuser to mention how some suggested course of action by an abused wife might be interpreted by an abuser ... well if Claire doesn't want that kind of input she only needs to say so. I'm sorry if Devastated Wife is offended by "my take" but I think she sees that she's viewing the situation from the viewpoint of one who has been abused, and I'm looking at it from the other perspective. I'm sure we both do not want to see Claire (and anyone like her) suffer any more needless pain. I mainly (in this post) want to offer a big caution .... if a wife starts taking things the abusive husband thinks he also shares a right to ... she should be prepared for more problems in the relationship (maybe that's OK, but I don't think most abusers would just assume that kind of reaction is appropriate and not make much of a fuss about it).Last edited on Sat Mar 6th, 2010 12:21 am by dennis1soil
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 05:23 pm |
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When the abused spouse has control of the assets and marital settlement agreement in front of the addict, the words "It's me or the porn" have a little more teeth to them. You will note that course of action leaves the choice to him.
Questions meant to prompt self-examination:
1. Why do you still dabble in porn? Are you still actively addicted? Why are you still actively addicted?
2. If your wife had taken the hardline stance I advocate, where do you suppose you would be today? Would you have walked away from all you supposedly hold dear to pursue your addiction?
3. Where would your wife be today if you had walked out to pursue your addiction? Would she be better off without you?
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 09:15 pm |
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Well at the risk of taking this thread even more off topic I will begin to answer your questions Devastated Wife - however I want Claire to know she can just let me know if she would rather we not "go there" in this thread she started.
1. Why do you still dabble in porn? Are you still actively addicted? Why are you still actively addicted?
Q(1). Why do you still dabble in porn?
A. I don't understand why I still dabble in porn. (Feel free to read through all my old posts however, I suspect in many - if not most - of them you may find at one point or another me speculating about one or more "reasons" I have suspected. Actually, along with the desire to free myself from the bondage of "dabble"ing in porn, I think most likely the next biggest reason is in hopes of learning the answer to your excellent and pertinent question.
Q(2). Are you still actively addicted?
A. I'd like to say "it depends on the day and maybe even the hour", though I suppose many would consider that kind of answer to be some type of cop out tendered by someone trying to avoid just giving the straightforward answer he is ashamed to admit. So I'll assume you may mean something along these lines - and then I'll give you the straightforward answer I think you are expecting to hear from a supposedly self-proclaimed "honest" guy (or one who says he tries to be as honest as he knows how and/or has the guts to be) :
Reworded question so Dennis will feel more comfortable giving an uncomplicated answer:
Q(2)(revised version) "Within the last 30 days, have you acted out and/or been "mastered by" (as the apostle Paul might say) the sin and addiction of dabbling in porn?
A. Yes.
Q. Why are you still actively addicted?
A. See my answer to the first question (1).
Again, I honestly don't know. Given that I was taught we can receive what we earnestly ask for in prayer when we ask according to the will of God - I'd think I would no longer have any issues with this addiction (certainly the Lord knows the content of my prayers - not to mention those of my wife and father, etc... i.e. He knows every detail of what has been prayed including what, when, and with what amount genuineness etc...). OK, now that takes me back to my first post in this thread where I listed some areas where I have focused anger and discontentment in relation to my continued use of porn.
Hey, we managed to get back to the purpose of this thread after all!.
(I'm not trying to be flippant here - sometimes I find trying to look at things in a bit more relaxed way is helpful in keeping me from getting so stressed that I might seek refuge where I should not be finding it.)
.......
I need to wrap up this post now - because in 10 minutes my wife and I are going out to see a matinee showing of the movie "Crazy Heart" ... yes I saw it's rated R, but she likes country music and for the life of me I can't find anything else showing which looks like it might be any less offensive. I really, really like holding hands and so I often go to movies with her where we see stuff I wouldn't go to see if it were just me making the decision as to what movie to see ... At the movies I get to hold her hand for a much longer period of time than if we were at home!
(I'll try to get to other things you ask later - like what do I think might have happened if my wife would have followed some of the suggestions in the list ... i.e. especially the ones I have referred to earlier).
-Dennis
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claire
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Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 09:51 pm |
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Last edited on Tue Mar 9th, 2010 12:54 am by claire
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TM2
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Posted: Sat Mar 6th, 2010 10:43 pm |
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I don't suppose he's open to doing counseling with you, which might be one way to explore the communications between you in a safe setting in the presence of another person?
What you describe sounds intolerable. May you find a path to a better place!
Tim M.
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claire
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 02:46 am |
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We have tried many counselors, he never likes them or what they say. Fortunately I learn
things and can apply them. There is a form of communication that takes place about 99%
of the time with us, and I end up being confused and hurt. I feel controlled by it and I
believe it to be abusive. It is not loving. I end up interrupting and cutting him off
because his words are emotionally threatening and then I am called the abusive one
because I cut him off. I feel that so many things go along with the porn usage, as it is
his way of medicating and keeping me down. The threats of leaving or not wanting to
stay keep me working hard to please. Isnt all of this control? Am I really that bad of a
wife? He can treat me so sweetly, be so kind and appreciative and then be completely
different. The more I read, the more I think about it all, the more I think I am seeing as
truth. I never hear an apology.
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TM2
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 04:10 am |
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The threats of leaving or not wanting to stay keep me working hard to please. Isnt all of this control? Yes.
Am I really that bad of a wife? No.
Tim M.Last edited on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 04:11 am by TM2
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 05:50 am |
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Claire, I'm really sorry to hear about what you have been going through. Though I think there may be some pretty significant differences between myself and your husband, I do see one similar characteristic ... At the height of my abusing ways, I never did think what I was saying to my wife was demeaning and it was only in rare brief moments when I would sort of "get a clue" as to why she would get so upset and be so unsatisfied with me.
Maybe I should also clarify that (and this is agreed to by her) I seem to have successfully moved away from almost all (if not all) of the negative behavior's which were hurting her so much. As I described in much more detail in several posts which I wrote a long time ago, the main things I did which hurt her the most were:
1) Questioning about the faith in God which she still held to firmly but I seemed to have basically lost (at least I was going back and forth between trying to hold on to how incredibly fervent and zealous I had been for God the first 20 years of our marriage and then challenging rather openly all of the foundational underpinnings of that faith in a way that seemed to her as if I was saying she was stupid because she didn't share my hesitations and/or questions.
2) Being very negative and/or cynical about almost everything in life (which was radically different than my normal "spirit" or the way I approached life, throuhgout the first half of our married years - especially the first 10 years.
3) In what she considered constant almost "sneaky" ways, I would act in ways that she interpreted as me saying she is simply not good enough for me. This seemed to be mainly associated with two areas: Her lack of good housekeeping - for instance keeping things basically tidy around the house especially as related to the kitchen and/or areas where mostly her stuff was piled -- and also the whole issue of how often she would make love (or perhaps she would thing the phrase "have sex" might be more applicable). I wanted to make love probably every night (though I did realize that was too often to expect) - but at least maybe twice a week ... she on the other hand (as I learned through going to a counselor) said she wouldn't mind if sex didn't exist at all since it seemed to be such a hot-button. This realization really surprised and hurt me to the quick. Maybe the biggest thing though in this "your don't think I'm good enough" area is the couple of times I did the unthinkable ... mentioned the scripture where the apostle Paul appears to suggest that sex in marriage is supposed to be a way to help people avoid the temptation of seeking sexual excitement outside of marriage. I think she felt like I was trying to manipulate her by using her fidelity to God. Which I suppose is what I was doing ... I like to go to the Bible to see what it says about ways to avoid sin and that's pretty much the most direct thing I could locate. (The teachings about how a husband should love his wife were kind of "fuzzy" for me -- I didn't know how I could "lay down my life for my wife" as Christ did for his bride the Church ... so I was kind of lost -- I needed something specific.
Well, to make a long story maybe not quite as long as it probably should be in order to be comprehensive: - one day for the second time I think she was very close to having a nervous breakdown after I had complained again about something which I don't even remember the specifics about now ... She gave me an ultimatum (Devastated Wife may be interested in hearing about this),
She said basically - I am afraid I will go mad if we continue together as we are now - where you keep critisizing me and are so negative all the time, and challenge my faith in God (which I absolutely must hold on to). I will not allow you to destroy me ... so unless you change within 1 year's time we will no longer live together .
That woke me up more so I was able to see more clearly how bad I was for her. I did not want to see her "go mad" as I felt I pretty much had been in varying degrees for a few years. I think it was that very day - probably within a couple of hours - that I decided I would be much more aggressive about trying various Psych medicines and probably more importantly as it turns out I made the following practical decision with such intensity that it actually changed my behavior. I decided since I didn't see a way to "lay down my life for my wife" ... I would assume that doing the dishes myself and clean up myself any mess I would have formerly complained about and not say anything to bring attention to the fact that I cleaned up messes she made.
Well - I'm not really sure exactly how I was able to change those habits - but I radically changed (as she has told others many times). There have been a couple of times for maybe a few days - usually when one of my medicines ran out - when I started going back to my old ways .... I could see her eye's get like a deer in the headlights - and I didn't like seeing her feel dread. So I would do two things ... one try to make sure I went and did the dishes if any were piling up, and two make certain I got more medicine QUICK (I have to order the Tianeptine from an overseas pharmacy because it is not OK'd by the FDA for this country).
...
It's been well over a year and a half now and she's mentioned a couple of times now that she is actually enjoying "making love" with me. We still are on maybe a once a week or so schedule - which is hard for me - but, you cannot believe how much better I feel about being alive!
I wish I could say that I completely stopped looking at porn on that very day (when she gave me the ultimatum) but that would certainly not be true. Remember, she didn't mention anything about the porn issue - though we had spoken about it several times before, even tried to do the accountability stuff (see the other thread Truthseeker recently opened about accountability).
...
Well, I'm really sorry - but it's time to go to bed ... plus we had our hot date earlier so who knows what may happen <wink> ... so I'm going to stop here.
I haven't even read what I have written so it will likely have lot's of problems. Hopefully it will be at least somewhat understandable.
I'll have to continue later if anyone is interested.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 12:32 pm |
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claire wrote:
I believe that if I were to put myself in my husbands place he would answer the question
"why do you dabble in porn" this way. It comforts me, I have nothing else in my life,
I have no friends and God doesn't talk to me. I dont get what I want in life, I hate where
I live and I hate my life. I have very little in my life that comforts me.
This is what I think he would say, and it could go deeper as he has always had a very
active fantasy life. A whole other world.
...
Well, now that I reread this post, I guess there are other things which are very similar between your husband and where I was (and to a certain extent still am). I've already explained the type of porn images I seek out, and I suspect they are significantly more "soft-core" than what your husband seeks -- so there are differences in that regard, however when you say how you think he would answer that question "why do you dabble in porn?" I see many similarities in how you say he might characterize his life. (I don't think I would have ever said those things are why I used porn, but I can at least relate with almost each one - and by the way, they each kind of smack of being depressed in some way.)
I'll go through the points you mentioned and say how each might have applied to me.
>>It comforts me.
Yes, me too.
>>I have nothing else in my life.
Well, here maybe I could say something like:
I like to see beauty, and the female form is what I consider most beautiful - By a factor of many, many fold - I much prefer seeing the form of my wife. However the number of minutes I can see her unclothed are so few, I am almost always wanting more ... and nothing else in life seems as cool and/or enjoyable to look at as an image of an unclothed female.
>>I have no friends and God doesn't talk to me.
Yes, me too.
Though I do consider my wife my friend, but she is not so enthusiastic/ready to referring to me as her friend (at least not for the last 5 years or so). As far as God talking to me - well who knows? Sometimes I think He has/does, and I'm pretty sure it's happened some, but I can't point to any for-sure specifics in maybe the last 11 years or so.
>>I don't get what I want in life, ...
Well sort of... What I want more than anything is for my wife to look forward to having sex like she did "in the early days" ... and especially for her to take pleasure in the fact that she is now and always has been so attractive to me. Oh yes, and I very much want to have sex a lot more frequently.
>>I hate where I live ...
No this doesn't and hasn't really applied to me - (I don't relate).
>>and I hate my life.
I don't think I would have ever actually said this - but I think I could have said something like: "in comparison to earlier days in my life - the state I find myself in now seems almost deplorable since I so often feel remorse for saying things which probably are hurtful when I would rather be saying things that seem to uplift people - anyone - not only my immediate family, but also the folks in Sunday School and various Church programs ... including the men's meetings I was finally able to get the church to start.
>>I have very little in my life that comforts me.
See earlier points involving "comforts me"
btw - note the use of "me" in so many of these points ... I seem to be very interested in "me" and I don't really spend all that much effort considering "other people" ... like for instance my wife and my kids, and the folks living down the road, and the hurts of other people at church ... etc... (I finally came to that realization ... almost to late to keep my wife from "losing it" and having a full nervous breakdown - also I was helping to push one of my daughters away from a stable sanity, she has inherited some of the same mental 'issues' which I suffer from).
OK now to some of your comments - not actually being words "put into" his mouth so to speak:
... he has always had a very active fantasy life. A whole other world.
Here we are very different - I have never fantasized in connection with looking at the porn I have described. When I say that almost no one has ever even come close to thinking I am telling the truth - or it doesn't seem as if anyone has.
However it is the truth.
As I've described in other posts on this board a long time ago, I was so religiously zealous even as a very young child that when I adopted my rationalization for looking at photos of nude women, I came up with what I considered a more specific "definition for lust" which would allow me when I got married to be able to enjoy sexuality with my wife (who might at times actually be nude).
So in my definition of lust the ground rules require that I would never imagine actually being with any woman other than my future and/or current legitimate God-approved so to speak, wife. So I learned (beginning at about age 8 or maybe younger) to blank out my mind completely when looking at images of the female form, and simply enjoy the altered chemical state of arousal in my body and/or just appreciate the form of the lines/curves I was seeing.
That's why I say I never have "fantasized" --- and actually (for me anyway) I think being able to do that "blanking of the mind" thing is part of why my use of porn is so appealing ... i.e. it's part of the "draw".
Like last night for instance - I don't think I ever became fully asleep. My wife wasn't really in mood to make love and that's OK - I have learned to live with that and it's appropriate that I do - she certainly has a full right as an equal partner to decide when. Whenever I'm thinking there might be a chance, and it doesn't turn out that way ... usually I don't sleep hardly any at all that night. Last night (it's 5:57 AM here now) my mind just kept spinning and spinning (this time about what I said in that last post - and/or whether my hasty words were even understandable). As is usually the case on such nights, I felt a strong desire to get up and go look for some images to help my mind shut down so to speak. (btw: the blank out mind thing does happen to an extent when we are intimate together... but the reason that is so much better is because my mind is not just blank I do feel for a "specific" woman - who is my wife!) Well I'm very happy to say that I stayed in bed even though my mind never did "phase down" and I'm not feeling the guilt now!!!
I finally got up at 4:00, ate a bagel then tried to go "back" to sleep - with no luck - then up around 5:00 and I've been typing this ever since.
(I said earlier I don't think anyone ever has really believed me -at least upon first hearing about the no-fantasize thing -... but there is some good news - actually I do believe there is good evidence my wife did finally come to believe me. It certainly took awhile though --- after 34 years of marriage -- and for many of those years I have worked at home, so we are in the same building/house almost all the time ... she has come to know me very well. I think she would tell you the only time she is aware of when I have lied to her was in those accountability types of times when I was trying to spare her from the pain she had described she feels whenever she learns I have not stayed away from porn. Those couple of lies is probably why it took awhile for her to believe me about the "I don't fantasize" thing ... since it has been (only) in the area of sexuality where I have lied before ... can she really believe me about something which is also in the area of sexuality??? -- I certainly understand the conundrum and/or hesitancy. As I said though, she does know me really, really well and I think, and I'm pretty certain, and very much hope she does believe me now. (In many ways, I'm ... shall I say "different" - but then again ... as we have seen with the statements you think your husband might make ... in many ways I'm also "similar").
It is really, really, really a pain when I tell the truth and I am simply not believed. But hey, "it happens" - I must learn to deal with it - and I think/hope I am making some progress lately.
... I think I'll end this post here - it's probably pretty long and sometimes (like early yesterday morning) I have spent a long time on a post and then accidentally fat-fingered something and lost the whole thing!
(btw - if you don't want to read this kind of thing - feel free to let me know ... actually I should probably be off making up some regular work anyway).
-Dennis
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 01:59 pm |
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Devastated Wife wrote:
Dennis,
I wonder, if your wife was an out of control alcoholic or out of control drug addict, raging at you and the kids, emotionally unavailable.......abusive........neglectful................if I had given YOU the same advice I gave to Claire, how would you see it?
That is meant to be a question that prompts self-examination. I don't expect an answer......
My best, Devastated Wife
Hi again Devastated Wife,
I know you said "I don't expect an answer.....", but I don't know if you want an answer.
Let me know if you do.
I'll wont give any full "answer" unless you say you do want to hear it.
At least I'll say in this response though that I have been thinking about your question. I'm not sure so much about "self-examination" though I'm working on that part.
I have been concentrating more on the last 4 things which are more associated with my personal historical behavior. I have never had a problem with alcohol - actually I don't think I've ever been "drunk". And I've never used any illegal drugs. However, I am told that I have been guilty of "raging at my wife and kids, and my wife says I was "emotionally unavailable", I don't think anyone has ever called me "abusive" (though I now know I was), and yes, I have also probably been "neglectful" (well, I have called myself abusive and maybe others on this board - I don't remember).
I realize you were asking me to examine myself in connection with a hypothetical scenario where my wife was the bad person showing such traits (rather than myself) ... so maybe it doesn't really matter which bad actions I have personally been guilty of?
I said somewhere else that I like to go looking in the Bible to try to find specific instructions about how to deal with a hard thing in my life. So, I have been doing that in connection with your challenge.
So far I haven't found a whole lot to work with - but I have found something which may be "a whole lot"'s worth ... when in comes to importance and or significance.
Yesterday morning I read through all 14 chapters of the book of Hosea (I mentioned the number of chapters in hopes of receiving extra brownie points)
As you probably know ... (though I don't think there's a lot of teaching about this book these days) in the book of Hosea God has His prophet Hosea find a prostitute (his choice turned out to be named "Gomer") who Hosea is to marry.
Hosea is not married to a wife with the exact same traits you listed ... however she does clearly have some pretty significant sexually oriented "issues".
Here's my personal quick take on the highlights which I think the book is communicating:
God says Israel has been acting like an adulterous spouse by preferring the supposed "worship style" which involve various and sundry religiously oriented sexual practices.
The actions of Gomer, Hosea's wife - who leaves him to go back into the prostitution lifestyle - are a picture of how Israel acts toward her husband, God.
Gomer gives birth to three children, and God has told Hosea what names they are to be given. Their names represent how God feels (and plans to act) based on Israel's brazen unfaithfulness and disregard for their marriage contract (covenant?).
(I'm just remembering this off the top of my head so you might want to go read for yourself in order to make sure I'm not misrepresenting any points).
The first child is named something like "Jezreel" (unfortunately I don't remember what that means) - but I think the other two kids names can be translated "No Mercy" and "You are not my people".
At first God basically says he wants a divorce - straight and simple. I think this is illustrated by having Hosea pretty much divorce Gomer when she has already left his house and (I think) working in a house of prostitution and/or a "worship" shrine as a temple prostitute.
Now also based on the names of the two kids I think I remember ... God says He will have "No Mercy" on Israel (even if they ask for it - is the impression I get) - and He's telling them "You are not my people" ... sort of like a Moslem and/or Amish father when a son or daughter leaves the "fold" (or at least that's kind of how I see it).
So, I was getting pretty bummed out actually (given I'm like Israel and perhaps also like Gomer in a way). Plus it was looking like I might not have been very biblical that time I complained to a friend of mine who was Amish about his basically turning his back on his son when he left their house/community/faith-style.
Things do get better though ... as the book unfolds (even mentioned in the 2nd chapter) God eventually changes his mind after his anger seems to quell some - and He tells Hosea to go get Gomer and bring her back into his house ... Also it was a real relief (to me) when I God told Hosea to change the names of the kids! (Man, those original names must have been worse than a boy named Sue).
So, I think those two kids names (I'm not sure about the other one named Jezreel) - were changed to the opposite of their original meanings - so now they are something likr "Mercy" and "My People".
....
Oh - one other thing which I think is probably significant is toward the first part of the book, where God says something to the effect that He had been a good "Husband" to Israel - but they traded having a husband and instead ending up living under the rule of a "Master" (I think the hebrew meanings of a couple of the key words are significant) I believe the Baals were "gods" (little 'g') considered to be like a bad husband rather than God who acted toward Israel from a predisposition of Love. I don't know this - but it wouldn't surprise me if there may be intended some reference to the way God said things would work out for the relationships between men and women (husbands and wives?) for instance "you will desire your husband and he will lord it over you" or something to that effect ... I don't think that was a "curse" but rather more of a "prediction" or statement about conditions the sin would end up bringing about. Of course I think we are supposed to rise above that, in part probably by not sinning any more, and in part probably by the right kind of faith.
======
OK - so how does this help me in a process of self-examination to know how I would feel and what I might suggest in regard to a wife causing such agonizing pain (and/or perhaps even unbearable if we were to retain our sanity) ... to both myself and perhaps more importantly our children?
To be honest ... I haven't completely figured that out yet.
I'm supposed to act like Jesus would and He says He and His Father are one. It seems God usually gets around to Mercy (though sometimes He can become really, really mad first).
Jesus was not treated very well by the Jewish leaders (and in a way he was supposed to be under their authority) ... however after being crucified by them he said something along the lines of "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do".
I don't know if God would want me to forgive a wife whose actions fit your list, for instance, as my wife has forgiven my actions (e.g. the ones I mentioned above).
Probably if I or my kids were in very real danger (which I didn't think could be lessened by any ways shorter than the types of things on the list) ... well, I'd probably consider them very seriously.
....
I know I haven't addressed what would have happened if my wife gave me an ultimatum about "Stop Porn or lose Me" or something along those lines. If you want my big answer - just let me know.
Basically though ... I have been trying to "Stop Porn" for almost 50 years ... she knew that and I think she knew it would really do any good for me to say "Yes I'll stop" because there was absolutely no reason to believe that could actually happen. I already wanted to stop - when in my right mind - and I didn't know how to keep from going into my wrong mind - absolutely everything I had ever tried had not helped ... I could give a list of a whole bunch of things of the kind this board says every addict must do and still no positive result.
Oh well - I guess you'd of had to be there.
...
-Dennis
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 04:50 pm |
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Dennis,
I'm holding the mirror for you now. My questions are meant to force you to look directly into the mirror. You've reworded them or avoided some altogether to avoid looking directly into the mirror. I'll tell you what I see in your posts, but first I want to be clear: I am NOT a therapist, so what I'm about to offer you is just an armchair opinion that is perhaps worth precisely what you paid for it.
1. You are still actively addicted. You are kidding yourself if you think addiction waxes and wanes hour by hour or day by day.........that you can be an addict one day and not the next. You are not in recovery.
2. You are still actively addicted, in part, because you can be. Your wife has not laid down the law, drawn the line in the sand or otherwise provided the consequence(s) that would make acting out more painful or more consequential than not acting out. You still use porn because you can. She is co-dependent. She can't imagine life without you. You will remain an addict until you a.) Decide for yourself that your life would be better without the porn, and/or b.) the consequences of acting out are greater than the discomfort you will endure for not acting out.
3. I see someone who is still lying to himself more than anything and that saddens me. The human mind is an amazing thing, but the capacity to deny reality amazes and confounds me.
I bid you strength to overcome this addiction, peace and serenity.
My best, Devastated Wife
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 05:49 pm |
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Dear Claire,
Please know that you are not a bad wife or a bad person. He belittles you to control you. I find a lot of comfort in Paul's letter to the Ephesians. I will type some passages below, from the New King James Version, beginning with chapter 5 (emphasis mine):
"...Therefore be imitators of God as dear children. And walk in love, as Christ also has loved us an given Himself for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling aroma. But fornication and all uncleanness or covetousness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints: Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks. For this you know, that no fornicator, unlcean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness, righteousness, and truth, finding out what is acceptable to the Lord. And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them. For it is shameful even to speak of those things which are done by them in secret. But all things that are exposed are made manifest by the light, for whatever makes manifest is light. .... Wives, submit to yoru own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and give Himself for her that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that he might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing but that she should be holy and without blemish. So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. .... Neverthless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband...."
These passages are often cited to teach women how to treat their husbands. Note please, Paul also teaches men how to treat their wives. I don't see your husband loving you as Christ loved the church or loving you as he loves his own body. My personal belief is that our husbands, through their actions in serving the unfruitful works of darkness, have forfeited their right to respect or to serve as the head of the home. I think we have to take a tough-love stance with them, "put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand"......... and force them into treatment. If treatment does not prove to be successful or if he refuses treatment, then my personal belief is that we have grounds for divorce. You are not a bad person, you are not a bad wife. Please put away all self-doubt. If you have a chance, read the entire book of Ephesians. It is chocked full of wisdom.
My best, Devastated Wife
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sun Mar 7th, 2010 05:56 pm |
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Devastated Wife wrote:
Dennis,
I'm holding the mirror for you now. My questions are meant to force you to look directly into the mirror. You've reworded them or avoided some altogether to avoid looking directly into the mirror. I'll tell you what I see in your posts, but first I want to be clear: I am NOT a therapist, so what I'm about to offer you is just an armchair opinion that is perhaps worth precisely what you paid for it.
1. You are still actively addicted. You are kidding yourself if you think addiction waxes and wanes hour by hour or day by day.........that you can be an addict one day and not the next. You are not in recovery.
2. You are still actively addicted, in part, because you can be. Your wife has not laid down the law, drawn the line in the sand or otherwise provided the consequence(s) that would make acting out more painful or more consequential than not acting out. You still use porn because you can. She is co-dependent. She can't imagine life without you. You will remain an addict until you a.) Decide for yourself that your life would be better without the porn, and/or b.) the consequences of acting out are greater than the discomfort you will endure for not acting out.
3. I see someone who is still lying to himself more than anything and that saddens me. The human mind is an amazing thing, but the capacity to deny reality amazes and confounds me.
I bid you strength to overcome this addiction, peace and serenity.
My best, Devastated Wife
Devastated Wife,
First I'll ask you a question (which you don't need to answer if you'd rather continue be the one who asks the questions).
Are you now, or have you ever been addicted to anything? (for instance: maybe illegal drugs, alcohol, illicit sex, porn, electronic gaming, gambling, gluttony, incessant watching of soap operas, reading hundreds of romance novels, etc... - basically anything which has mastered chunks of your time and energy that in retrospect you desperately wish you had used for better things).
Don't get me wrong here - I'm not saying if you haven't been addicted what you say is not of as much value to me ... (I guess I'm just curious).
=================
1) Yes - you are correct that I am still actively addicted (to the use of porn). As far as "in recovery" is concerned - I think I probably qualify to being in recovery as far as the addiction to the three things I mentioned she specified in the ultimatum she gave me about how she would not allow me to drive her mad (so to speak).
--- This whole thing about "in recovery" verses "active addict" actually doesn't seem to make much sense to me. However I think I get a more helpful idea when considering the difference of having a clearer picture of reality because my mind seems to be working more as it should - verses believing I can think correctly when in reality I'm deluded.
(btw - while watching the movie "Crazy Hearts" yesterday ... I did not hear very much of value, however there is a line from one of the songs which has kind of intrigued me: "funny how falling can seem like flying for awhile". Yep - the "for awhile" is the gotcha!)
2) I have already decided (throughout most of the hours I have been alive that is) - that my life would be better if I were to never have used porn, and never will use porn again. As far as my wife somehow being the magical cure through her stopping being "co-dependent (get real)" and somehow coming up with a way to make sure I never use porn, and making my life a living hell if she finds it happened .... there are some very big problems there.
If order for her to be able to pull off what I think you may be suggesting (though I have serious doubts if there is any way that could even be possible without me getting fired from my job ... and that would effect a lot of people very negatively), I think her life would need to become almost as sad as my (addicted life) has been.
Frankly, I don't wish think she should need to go through that. I could go into how my job requires me to be signed on to the internet for anywhere from 40 to 80 hours a week normally, and how my knowledge of technical issues in regard to getting around filters and spyware might need to be somehow suppressed, etc, etc... and, and ... (well, if you really want to know more specifics, again, feel free to go back and read my old posts - and/or ask me go into what I wife would need to be able to do to stop someone like myself from accessing nude type photos - here in this or any other thread.
3. Absolutely I agree with your astonishment about how a human mind can sometimes simply not see the reality which is staring him in the face. One of the many reasons I take Psych types of medicines is to attempt to straighten out neuro-chemical non-normal brain "conditions".
As a side-line thought: my grasp of reality is so effected by physical chemical changes that during the moon's full phase (ask maternity ward nurses and/or policemen about full moons) I have a much harder time understanding reality and acting in a loving way. Perhaps the terms "Lunar" and "Lunacy" have some positive correlation.
I have already said I've struggled with mental illness (i.e. bi-polar, ADD, etc...) - I do find help from medicines, however I take pretty much the very minimum dosages so I can still pretty much do my job as well as I did before taking the medicines (the Tianeptine helps to keep some brain plasticity also). It's good not only for myself but also my wife and kids and sometimes even grand-kids if I continue to receive a salary (while feeling like I have contributed enough so that I don't experience massive amounts of guilt when I accept the paycheck).
I'm not try to use a "plea of insanity" to say I'm somehow "not-guilty" of being a despicable porn user. I am guilty - and my wife is not a co-dependent - I'm sure I would most likely be using a whole lot more porn if she were no longer in my life. (Maybe she could be better off - and she probably would be better off without me in her life - if I were not in some way "in recovery" for the sin/addictions of challenging her faith in God, criticizing her incessantly, and making her feel guilty for not wanting to "make love" or "have sex" as often as I do).
=====
Overall I suppose I pretty much agree with your analysis. (Though again I strongly take issue if you are suggesting my wife has the ability to "fix me" if she were to just buck up and decide she will leave if I don't stop - and figure out a way to be able to know if I haven't stoped by spending time and effort to make sure her monitoring efforts are 100 percent effective, etc.. etc...) I think that would be putting way too much burden on her ... plus ... heck, she isn't even the "bad guy" here.
As it is, she has decided not to be involved in the "let's make sure Dennis is always a good boy" business. She's decided (at least this is how I think she views things) that I am a big boy who is responsible for my own actions. If I do something illegal then the law of the land should prosecute me. If I do something unethical then God and/or Church officials can look into it and punish if necessary. But she is not either my government or my God ... she's my wife and hopefully my lover. If I will love her without being forced by her ... then I suspect she will likely enjoy my love even more than if she has to "make me".
That's just my take anyway.
I wish she would come online and contribute to the discussion herself - as I've suggested she might want to do at some point. However she has told me she doesn't want to spend her time that way, so I have honored that and I don't bug her about it anymore.
Devasted Wife, I do appreciate your biddings toward me ... and if you should ever find yourself addicted to anything (heaven forbid - and I mean that)... I also bid you strength in overcoming it, along with peace and serenity.
-DennisLast edited on Sun Mar 7th, 2010 06:15 pm by dennis1soil
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