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claire
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 12:42 am |
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Last edited on Tue Mar 9th, 2010 12:51 am by claire
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TM2
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 01:39 am |
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Only 2 quick comments, so I can get back to work:
(1) For many addicts, the porn images spill over into love-making with our spouses. For me, that wasn't true. I don't have an explanation for that, but when I was with my wife, I was thinking of her, not of someone else. So I think this is possible, though not universal.
(2) You write, . . .when I am good, he treats me so well . . . I wonder if that belief isn't worth re-examining. For me, and I think this is almost universal among addicts, the anger wasn't really driven by anything my wife or kids did. It was driven by something inside me, by what was happening in my addicted life.
It's natural that our wives and kids try to make sense out of our unpredictable, random rage by trying to figure out what they can do to keep it from happening. "Ah, OK, it was something I did. So I have to try to be perfect, and then everything will be fine. It's not so bad. I can control his moods."
But that's a delusion. The people around us can't control our moods. Believing that they can leads them into codependency and perfectionism and anxiety and sometimes into addictions themselves, since the predictable action of something addictive provides relief from the unpredictable behavior of the addicted spouse or parent.
Still, we long for control and we long for patterns. Humans are great at seeing patterns whether they are there or not.
But I'd be willing to bet that there are not patterns here. Your belief that his abuse is caused by you not being good strikes me as very sad. It's setting yourself up for trouble, and it's accepting responsibility for your own mistreatment.
I could be wrong, of course; but it might be worth considering and exploring and finding out.
Just quick reflections on how it seems to me from a distance, of course.
Tim M.
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claire
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 02:20 am |
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Last edited on Tue Mar 9th, 2010 12:50 am by claire
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 03:05 am |
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(Edit after initial posting - Tim and I posted in such a succession that I hadn't yet read his post when I wrote this).
Claire, it's cases like you describe that makes me hate having to live in this world and yearn for heaven -- even though my wife could have shared some of the same types of things about me at one time (and/or still now).
I will say though that it's looking to me like there is at least one pretty notable difference between the way you describe your husband and myself - even when I have been at my very worst. I have never used any swear words when speaking to anyone (except maybe a "shit" once or twice), and I've never acted as if an outbursts of yelling in anger was justified (at least not after being away from the immediate scene of the outburst for maybe 5 minutes or so) ... I've apologized when anyone has brought to my attention the fact that I was obviously angry without just cause - and usually they haven't needed to bring it to my attention, my conscious seizes me quickly as the adrenaline level begins to subside.
(I'm almost certain my wife would confirm what I'm saying here - certainly I'm stating how I remember/see things ... I wish I felt OK about asking her to read some of these posts and correct me if/when I not telling it as it was/is, because admittedly sometimes I don't remember things the same way she does --- and when we differ, she is most usually the one who is more factually correct).
I said I long for heaven, which seems ironic because as I was reading the passage of scripture Devastated Wife typed into her post I was thinking it does not appear as if I will have any fellowship with Christ --- so if that's the case, I will not be able to enjoy heaven, even though I long for it so much.
OK, so now I'll again try to make some comments coming from the point of view of an "active" porn addict (thanks for clarifying that D.W.) - I'm hoping maybe hearing my take on some of what you wrote might be of some help to you (though as I mentioned earlier, overall it's looking to me as if he may be further down the wrong road that I've been traveling on for much too long).
claire wrote:
... I do wonder about how you can not lust after these pictures and how you just go blank. I often wonder when I am with my husband intimately, what is he thinking, what images are bringing him to completion with me. I know he loves to be with me and actually he says that he wants to have sex two or three times a day. He has said that for years, however I feel that it isnt just because he desires me it is because it has become his comfort. His mind must pull up images when he is with me. How could he not? ...
I can understand if you mean you wonder how I could be able to look at pictures of nude women and not lust after something? and/or or how my mind could just go blank. As I mentioned in the earlier post, almost everyone is also very very skeptical about what I described.
However, you didn't phrase your comment in the same way I described what happens - I said I don't "lust" given a definition of the word "lust" which I personally have come up with - what I meant is I don't imagine (or even desire) a scenario where the specific woman in the photo/movie (or any woman other than my wife) would be together with myself and the two of us would be involved in any type of a sexual "relationship". To avoid this kind of "lust", I trained my mind from a very early age to just go blank and basically just "enjoy the view" so to speak.
Again, I don't want to seem flippant but that "enjoy the view" phrase is perhaps the best way to explain what I do. I just enjoy seeing the way God designed the female form -- and I also very much enjoy the altered state of arousal in my body associated with the accompanying sexual "thrill". The "thrill" is probably one of the main reasons the experience is like injecting a chemical substance (e.g. like alcohol or an illicit drug).
Now I'll try to put something into what is probably a proper context and/or issue a quick proviso here. From what I have learned by reading quite a bit on this subject, it appears there are very few men who can identify or "relate" much with what happens in my mind (i.e. either the lack of fantasizing about an encounter with perhaps a specific woman who is not their wife -- or experiencing their mind going blank, i.e. simply not thinking of anything at all).
So I guess I'd have to think the odds are probably pretty high against the likelihood of your husband somehow being exactly like me in this regard ... but of course I don't know that.
I will say however, conceptually I believe it should be much easier for a man to share the way of "using porn" I've described, in contrast to a woman either experiencing such and/or even being able to grasp how it could be possible for any human to experience any type of porn (be it one-person-at-a-time soft-core variety - or especially any hard-core types). I say this because I think men and women are sort of "wired differently" when it comes to sexuality, (for the most part that is, I suppose there are exceptions to every rule). I suspect being a woman makes it even more difficult for you to consider how he could possible not be seeing porn related images when the two of you are being intimate.
This might be some good news:
I've read accounts of several men who though they admit fantasizing while viewing porn - say they don't see any of that type of image when they are intimate with their wife. Actually, I think this may be fairly common (again I speak only from having read accounts of men from sites like this mostly - and I also came away with the same impression after being involved for several days in group sessions when I attended a nationally famous Christian oriented therapeutic workshop which specializes in helping porn addicts gain some victory over the bondage.
Generally speaking (again, being an active addict myself) I feel the urge to encourage you to simply believe your husband if he says he isn't thinking about images of other women and/or scenes he has seen in porn while he's with you. Like I said in another post, I personally want to be believed -- and just because I'm an active addict does not necessarily mean I am always lying whenever I say something that seems really strange to my wife (or anyone else). Maybe your husband can and/or does still tell the truth sometimes (even if you may have caught him in lies regarding other things). Though it's sounding to me as if he defends his porn habit in such a way that he probably doesn't really see a need to do very much lying. I think the two main reasons we might tell a lie(s) are either because we don't want to be embarrassed or because we want to spare someone else pain (which incidentally, we know will also add to our own guilt/pain).
Of course, I just don't have any way to know specifics about what might be going on in your husbands brain - I suppose only he and God (and maybe even your husband himself may be deluded).
I also think sometimes a wife just can't understand something about how her husband experiences various things in relation to sex (and I've learned the hard way that sometimes a husband just can't even get a clue about how his wife feels about a whole lot of things in relation to what she feels and/or thinks in regard not only to her sexuality but also what she assumes concerning her husbands perspectives).
The guy who wrote the book about men being from Mars and women from Venus probably made a lot of money riding a very insightful way of looking at the messed up sexual scene on planet earth ever since the fall of Adam and Eve.
-DennisLast edited on Mon Mar 8th, 2010 03:09 am by dennis1soil
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 03:05 am |
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When God is not enough, no one and nothing else in our lives will be.
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claire
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 04:01 am |
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Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:04 am by claire
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 05:07 am |
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When the abused spouse has control of the assets and marital settlement agreement in front of the addict, the words "It's me or the porn" have a little more teeth to them. You will note that course of action leaves the choice to him.
Questions meant to prompt self-examination:
1. Why do you still dabble in porn? Are you still actively addicted? Why are you still actively addicted?
2. If your wife had taken the hardline stance I advocate, where do you suppose you would be today? Would you have walked away from all you supposedly hold dear to pursue your addiction?
3. Where would your wife be today if you had walked out to pursue your addiction? Would she be better off without you?
... My questions are meant to force you to look directly into the mirror. You've reworded them or avoided some altogether to avoid looking directly into the mirror. ... (bold emphasis mine)
Hi again Devastated Wife:
Sorry if it has appeared to you that I was intentionally avoiding some of your questions. I have been planning on answering as many as I can - given the limited amount of time available to me - I guess I just hadn't worked my way through enough of them yet (I'm not sure if questions 2 and 3 are ones you were referencing or maybe some others I have missed?)
OK here goes for question number 2.
First of all, I consider these sort of loaded questions for a couple of reasons ... I'll address why, and then try to answer them.
When you say: "from all you supposedly hold dear" (emphasis mine) - are you saying (albeit indirectly) you think I do not "hold dear" being married to my wife?
When you say: "walked away"(again emphasis mine) - it sounds as if you are assuming I would have been the one to initiate a separation/divorce ... but if in this imaginary scenario my wife were to have taken the "hardline stand", I would think she would be the principle party working toward the split.
Actually there has never been even a single moment when I have either desired or spoken about a possible split-up. I never have wanted to separate - however for a week or two she asked me (and I did) sleep in another house we own (just down the dirt road) but I still came back here and shared meals with her and whichever daughter happened to be here given the day/week. - the only reason I did that is because she felt it would be better for us if we were not to sleep in the same bed for awhile.
I suppose you might use the term "walked away" if you mean if she insisted on splitting up and we needed to decide who could live in the main house ... then yes, I would certainly want her to continue to have access not only to live in the best way our joint assets would allow - but also I would want her to continue to have access to all the money I earn and any and all property/assets we have ... that's how it has always been between us and that is how I think I would have insisted it should remain. But by no means could it ever be assumed that I "walked away" from our relationship voluntarily.
If she would have taken such a stance in regard to me sometimes looking at photos of nude women (i.e. something to the effect of "if I ever catch you using porn again I will divorce you" ... shoot, I'm really having a difficult time imagining such a scenario. Especially with some of the inflammatory words like "make life a living hell" still in the back of my mind -- those concepts are simply not in my wife's makeup.
She is a very strong woman, that's for certain (absolutely anyone who knows her would readily testify to that - actually they would most likely say she is much stronger than I could ever be - and much more likely to do well on her own. However she would not likely be able to make nearly as much money - since she home-schooled our four daughters rather than developing a career.
As far as her being involved in any way to try to make my life miserable, that concept simply strains the limits of my ability to imagine.
>> "Would you have walked away from all you supposedly hold dear to pursue your addiction? (emphasis mine)
I suppose by "pursue your addiction" you mean - fail to be instantly successful at accomplishing a feat which I had repeatedly attempted over a span of many many years - failing each of the perhaps 800 or 900 individual times even though on many separate attempts I was seeking help from what were promoted as being the best sources available. If failing yet again is what's meant by "pursue your addiction" then I guess I have to say the odds are very very high in the direction of "Yes", I most likely would have pursued my addiction (though certainly not as a result of a conscious choice to value something like "my precious porn" even more than my wife). Probably one of the reasons I asked in another post whether you have ever been addicted is because if you have, I think it might be easier to understand what I mean when I say a failure to drop an addiction "cold turkey" is not necessarily identical to making a conscious choice along the lines of:
"I choose to purse my addiction since it's more important to me than all I've been saying I hold dear"
or something like:
"I want to keep using my porn since it's more important to me than being able to keep living with my wife and enjoying with her spending time with our kids and grandkids together while we're in the same house at the same time"
I think part of the nature (almost implicit in the definition) of an "addiction" is that a person can't just look at options and based on reason and logic be able to "just stop" with what they may have been leaning on for many, many years. (Taking a hardline stand and insisting that a spouse must pull that off - even if within a regimen of "tough-love" to me seems pretty unlikely to succeed).
>> "3. Where would your wife be today if you had walked out to pursue your addiction? Would she be better off without you?"
I'll skip over my "issues" with the inclusion of "walked out to pursue your addiction" since I have already addressed that.
I think my wife would most likely be living in this big house from whence I am writing this post now. I guess if I didn't start taking medicines and didn't start doing the dishes etc... then I would have probably continue to hurt her by doing the three kinds of things I mentioned in earlier posts so ... Yes, she would be better off without me because she would have a better chance of remaining sane.
Actually in our case (and I'm not suggesting this would apply to anyone else's case - everyone is unique) - I suspect if she would have taken a "hard-line" here is what would have likely happened. I would probably have "slipped" again, and that would I guess trigger a divorce causing me to move somewhere else. However, I strongly doubt that I would have changed the character traits that I did change AFTER the point where I think you are having me speculate about her taking the hardline stand.
So as far as my take on whether she would have been better off .... I guess it depends on your perspective ...
The good news for her:
-- She would not be living with me and "taking" all the abuse from me. Including no porn using husband in the house and no more having me make fun of her religious beliefs (at least that's what she thought I was doing - i.e it felt that way to her), and no more me criticizing her seemingly incessantly, and no more having me make her feel like she was "guilty" in some way because she wasn't enthusiastic about making love all the time.
The bad news for her:
-- If for some reason I were to keep getting worse and worse with my character, I might try to use the law to say I get to have some access to my paycheck ... now that could spell some real trouble financially -- but I guess she might let the bank have the "big house" and go live in the "little house" which we bought for 30 thousand dollars ... that is if I didn't try to get possession of it.
She has a business but it hasn't been turning much if any profit so she might be living pretty close to the poverty level if I decided to "take what is legally mine" --- (though I can't imagine me ever doing that ... however I guess some guys might turn into worse people overall if they are forced into a divorce which they don't want)
OK - I guess that's the best I can do as far as that exercise in self-examination is concerned. Hopefully I have now helped to change your perception of me having avoided some of your questions.
(I'll go look through other posts to see if I can find any more questions I haven't answered yet)
-Dennis
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 08:53 am |
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claire wrote:
... He has always just been very blatant in his speech and it is very painful at times, especially when he offers no hope and all seems just so bad. So negative. I can feel so so bad about myself when it is all said and done. I wonder, is that love? (emphasis mine)
Claire,
That's not love (in my book).
My opinion is this: if he knows his actions are causing you to "feel so bad about myself" and he does not express any apology and doesn't take any steps to try to learn ways to change the behaviors leading you to feel that way - then he is most likely so self-centered that he basically will not consider anyone other than himself. I think this is a really precarious position for both of you ... There have been times when my own selfishness took me very dangerously close to falling into a pit so deeply that there may have been no way I could ever get out.
One of the courses I attended while looking specifically for help in controlling both my porn related addiction and also the things I was doing which caused my wife to feel like she was worthless (similar to how you feel, I assume) ... this course approached both porn use and selfishness from the perspective that demonic forces might be achieving a level of success in pushing a person (e.g. husbands like us) deeper into these sins. I seriously considered whether that might perhaps be in some measure associated with some of my actions and lack of compassion for anyone other than myself. On a couple of occasions I've asked people to pray for deliverance for me from such powers ... I don't honestly know if that ever turned out to help, but it's possible I could have received some help from that even though I didn't actually recognize the help as being associated with such prayers. At any rate, I do think that kind of thing is possible and in some cases I think is in fact happening.
Of course I can't know about your husband ... but I do think he seriously needs a strong wake up call (and for that matter, I need another strong wake up call myself, hopefully some of the things I've been prompted to consider as I've been hanging out here recently will help make that happen for me - I pray the same for your husband).
Judging only from what I have read which is still viewable in this thread ... (while remembering there are two sides to every story, and I haven't read anything written by your husband ....) ... my take is that you need to become pretty hard-skinned unless and until he repents - I hate to recommend that to anyone - but he doesn't appear to be helping you become a better person, and since the two of you are one (given what Jesus says about marriage) ... by causing you emotional harm he's also hurting himself.
I don't know all the possible negative things that might effect you if you were to live separated somewhere - such that it would make it less likely for you to be hurt by him (given that you would not even talk with him unless and until he showed signs of being able to care as much for you as he does for himself) ... but that might be worth considering.
I know when my wife told me she could not allow me to drive her out of her right mind - and to continue living with me without me changing how I interact with her ... (in her case she felt like she hold out for another year so that was part of the ultimatum) - I at least was still able to love her enough to realize she was correct to look out for herself and we really would need to be separated if my abusive behavior did not change. I'm not sure if your husband can look past his own self far enough to see your needs and recognize he will need to let you go - even if he must be hurt in order for you to be helped. At any rate, I think you should not feel any type of regret for any hurt he comes to endure if it turns out you choose to separate for the sake of your own sanity.
I very much do not want your life to become even worse in part due to taking a hardline position, (which I think could possibly be the case for some women), however the way it's sounding, again, as I hear only one side, your current circumstances may perhaps be so bad now that it wouldn't be all that likely for you end up affected in a way that would be any worse when "going it on your own" so to speak.
Of course whether you would be able to earn enough money and/or obtain enough funds in order to support yourself (and/or perhaps any dependent children???) is something which I think you would probably want to give serious consideration to before making any ultimatum - it's better not to threaten anything you not sure you can and will deliver. I think Devastated Wife was also suggesting you would need to give serious consideration to that type of thing.
I would think it could be very tricky legally if you were to try to take stuff that might perhaps be technically owned either "in his name only" and also I'd expect that even your portion of jointly held assets might be tied up for quite awhile and unavailable for you to use to pay day to day expenses (i.e. like to buy food and pay rent, etc...).
I probably should not even be saying anything of this nature to you - given who I am.
I may be the very last person you should consider listening to about what might be the best actions for you to consider in an effort to reduce the pain you are now experiencing.
-Dennis
P.S. now, having said all this - I most likely will not be making any additional posts for at least the next few days ... I have to get back to work.Last edited on Mon Mar 8th, 2010 09:13 am by dennis1soil
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TM2
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 12:14 pm |
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I wonder if for future replies we couldn't try to separate the piece of this thread devoted to Dennis' recovery and put it into a separate thread from the original thread devoted to claire? It seems to me there are too many conversations happening in this thread. Feel like starting your own thread, Dennis?
In very quick response to Dennis reply to DW, though, I don't see DW's questions as loaded. I see them as appropriately challenging. Dennis, you and I have promised to be faithful to our wives and to love them, which ought minimally to include not repeatedly doing things that injure them and their self-esteem. We supposedly hold those commitments and our wives dear, but every time we seek images of other women to masturbate to, we walk away from those things we supposedly hold dear in order to pursue our addictions. I've done that thousands of times. Isn't it time, maybe, to stop playing games about what "walk away" or "supposedly" or "pursue addiction" mean and to admit that what DW describes is how we have lived decades of our lives? Isn't it time to face what we do? If I'm not able to see myself and my actions clearly, then I'll have trouble changing either.
Now, neither of us has walked away a final time, but that could certainly happen. If, 5 or 10 years ago, my wife had said, "One more time and you're gone," I would eventually have acted out again and been gone. I'd have been extremely distressed about that. I would not have made a calm and rational decision to abandon my wife to pursue porn, but that's what my actions would have come down to. In that situation, I'd have no problem accepting that I had walked away from all I supposedly hold dear in order to pursue my addiction. I did that incrementally, a day at a time, over and over again, for 30 years.
I don't think DW is thoughtlessly using loaded questions to make you feel bad. I think DW is just directly and honestly describing what addicts like you and me do. So why be so sensitive? Why spend paragraphs trying to dodge? Why not just answer?
I've given part of my own answer above. For me, slips have been part of my recovery. That's common in addicts. I'm not happy about that, but it is true. In a true zero-tolerance situation, I would have slipped and be gone. Would this have been better for my wife and kids? I don't think so. I think my direction is positive. I think I'm repairing damage done to my family for many years. I think I do that better as a part of their lives rather than not. I also think that were the slips to become continuous and a significant relapse to occur, then they would be better off without me. Finally, I think that what level of screwing up they are willing to tolerate is a question they have to continue to answer, and not me.
See, one can answer a question like that in a few sentences.
Just how it seems to me.
Tim M.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 12:39 pm |
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Thank you, Tim.
I've stopped reading Dennis' responses. I'm not finding them helpful, so I will not be responding to any of it.
I am here for Claire if she needs or wants the perspective of a wife who was devastated, but decided not to be a continuing victim.
I have decided that I will live a porn-free life. Whether that includes my husband remains to be seen. I've given him two years to get it together. For me, I've decided that porn addiction has been and is more damaging to me and my children than the relationship with my husband/their father is positive. I've given him the choice, but I've dictated the terms. If he chooses to abide by my terms, he can stay. If not, he's out. It's that simple.
My best, Devastated Wife
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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TM2
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 02:31 pm |
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DW,
YW.
Your boundaries seem completely reasonable to me; but that's irrelevant, because they are your boundaries and not mine or anybody else's.
I found myself thinking more just now about my quick answer to DW's questions, which was honest but not completely satisfactory. So I want to ask myself a slightly different question:
What if my wife had insisted at some stage on clear progress but not perfection. I'll leave if you're not going to meetings and working the steps and seeing a counselor and talking with me and if the abuse doesn't stop, but I accept that there may be temporary setbacks as part of the process?
At the right time, that sort of boundary could have moved me to start getting serious sooner than I did. I've been in recovery for 5 years. Hit with that sort of firmness 10 years ago, I might well have started my recovery then, instead of in 2005. I probably wouldn't have moved as fast at first, not having yet hit the point of inner desperation I reached in 2005. I would have felt some resistance. External pressure doesn't move us like inner despair. But I probably would have moved, and we might have avoided the last 5 years of my life before recovery. Assuming that I eventually embraced recovery wholeheartedly for myself, this would have made a huge difference for our family. Saving my kids from 5 years of me at my worst would have been a huge positive.
What if my wife had made such a boundary 20 or 30 years ago? At that time, I probably wasn't ready to embrace recovery. It was too early. I hadn't yet suffered enough. My feelings were too deeply buried. I could not have gotten to a sufficient point of self-awareness to make meaningful inner work and recovery possible. I would have tried to dodge. I would have lied and hidden better. I might have gone through the motions, but without a really good and tough counselor, I don't think I could have gotten anywhere, even if I tried sincerely. I wouldn't yet have hit bottom. I wouldn't have been able to get what the problem was, how deeply broken my life was.
So we would probably have separated at that time. Would that have been better? I wonder. Our kids wouldn't have suffered from an angry and unavailable father, but depending on when we split, our kids might not exist. A father not there at all is also unavailable. My wife might have found someone better, in which case it would have been a clear win for her and the kids, unless there is some deep way in which suffering and watching others suffer nourishes our souls. For me, it would have been worse, because being alone, I would never have understood how broken and isolated I was. But that can't be the motivation of the spouse - staying together in the codependent hope to protect the addict from suffering.
In the end, I can't assign values to the various possible outcomes, but then, it's not my job to do so. But that's what I think I would have done.
Sorry for the hijack. Back to claire now, perhaps?
Tim M.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 02:35 pm |
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| Excellent post.........as always. Back to Claire..........
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My best, Devastated Wife
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InnerGold
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 05:11 pm |
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Claire,
From what I have read, your situation is different and unique. There are some similarities with stories and experiences but they are not all the same. Devastated said she can relate with a lot of your pain. Dennis has given some of his own experience which is very bold and daring to do but he has been honest in his explanation.
Dennis, has made some statements that you just can't possibly believe but I can tell you, for most men, they don't get involved emotionally when viewing porn or other sexually addictive behaviors. I am not trying to justify behaviors but the way men and women view intimacy is completely different.
Women bring emotion into intimacy. They become emotionally attached to the entire situation. It is not the actual event it is the days prior leading up to the intimate moment. It is how she was treated. If he helped clean up the house or just sat on his lazy butt. All of this goes into the intimacy. Contrast that with men, they don't tie all of this together. They are very singular in thought (hunters) they want something they start moving in for the kill (sorry for use of word, but helps explain the analogy). After the kill, they can resume with daily activities (singular in thought) and not really think about it. A woman will think about the experience all day, some will analyze and break down the event. Did I enjoy it, or not?
Why do I explain all of this? This helps to answer the question/statement you made in a previous post.
I do wonder about how you can not lust after these pictures and how you just go blank. I often wonder when I am with my husband intimately, what is he thinking, what images are bringing him to completion with me. I know he loves to be with me and actually he says that he wants to have sex two or three times a day. He has said that for years, however I feel that it isnt just because he desires me it is because it has become his comfort.
Almost every event is singular, they are not grouped together. I guess you could say men our narrow minded. This is the reason men generally do better at sports and focused events.
His mind must pull up images when he is with me. How could he not? I struggle with the fact that I dont think he even realizes that he speaks in ways that are abusive.
Not necessarily so because of what I mentioned above. Women have a hard time understanding this concept because everything is homogenized, everything works together. Men are singular and everything is separate.
Now on my soap box: I hate it when men are abusive to their wives it really, 'T's' me off. This is wrong in every way. This is not ok and I hope you realize, you are a daughter of God and He loves you. No ONE has the right to be abusive to any of His children.
I have brought that up when he is swearing at me etc and he doesnt see it at all. He threatens me in his way, saying we are not a match, we are too different, we arent going to make it etc.
This is what is called a red personality or force mode:
Individuals are constantly seeking to expand their turf. There energy source comes from their acquisitions. They seek power, wealth and subservience of others. They always look outside and never internally. They will never show you their whole hand, because they think this is weak and vulnerable. They don’t think of others. They believe their is no ultimate truth; integrity is what is true at the moment. They also believe only fools confess and take responsibility and are always looking for loopholes in everything.
I could go on and on but I see a lot of these characteristics in your posts about your situation.
He knows that it makes me a panicked wreck and for a while after I melt into a woman who serves even more and gives up her strong and confident sense of values and smiles and serves even more than usual.
I used to become so depressed that I would just be, and I think he likes that.
This is evidence of seeking power and keeping you down. He does not want you to realize your potential. He wants you to think he is everything and with out him, you are nothing. You are powerful. You are great! You are amazing! He fears, deep down, that you will realize this. He needs you! I like to think of the story, “Ants” the grasshoppers were lazy, domineering, and controlling. They realized the ants outnumbered them but the ants did not realize this until Flick (posters on Blazinggrace) pointed it out. You are a lot like the ants but just need to realize your potential, just like Flick did.
I used to become so depressed that I would just be, and I think he likes that.
He does find joy in this because of his personality mentioned above. He does not think he is really hurting you because he would not get hurt if someone said this to him. It would just make him mad and he would fight!
I used to become so depressed that I would just be, and I think he likes that. I did have a breakdown years ago and I was severely depressed. Though he did not like that I was like a dead deer on the side of the road, he liked that I had no spunk or fight left in me, that I was low energy and subservient and needed him in a desperate way.
More evidence of control: you needed him and you both knew it!
saying I talk like I am mentally ill, etc. I get flustered and I get physically ill. I dont think he cares if I dont like it, he told me once that at some level he is glad is hurts me.
If he has control, he can do as he pleases. Hence, what Devastated said in the beginning of this thread about seizing all of the assets. This would send him into a tail spin. I am not saying do this or not but this would take control from him.
one who is here and loves inspite of it all!
More proof that you are an amazing woman!
He is depressed takes an antidepressant and anti anxiety meds, has for 10 years. He is mostly negative and lets me know how he hates everything in his life.
Sounds like he has some other issues he is dealing with but, again, he needs to want to change. How was his life growing up? What trauma has he been around or been involved with or just his poor choices?
Now, the hard part is that when I am good, he treats me so well, I am now love, honey, and I get affection and help.
More control. Like all hunters you can’t always chase, stalk and shoot. You have to set up a station, sit and wait. Give the animal what it wants food, talk, affection, etc.
I asked him if he were to choose would he choose me or the porn, he said the porn and wow, the pain is awful. But now, he is acting like he loves me, wants me. He does actually love a lot of things about me, but he struggles with internal pain that I guess out shines everything.
More control and when he starts to be vulnerable or think he might be losing control, he buckles down and hides any emotion that would actually start the process of healing. No matter what you do, he will always make you feel like it is your fault. If he feels like he is not getting control this way, he will start to give a sob story and want you to join the pity party (control).
Can he still love you? Yes!
Does he still love you? Maybe.
Do you still love him? What is it that you love? What does he give you? Why does this relationship mean so much to you? Why do you want to sit through this pain?
I am just asking these questions so you can start to evaluate your situation.
Wish you the best because you deserve it!
Legal disclaimer: The information given here is not to be taken as specific counsel it is shared only to help you evaluate your situation and help you to make your own decisions. InnerGold specializes in sexual addiction recovery but I am not the therapist. I am one who has seen the InnerGold treatment system change the lives of a lot of people and want to share it with the world.
____________________
Changing the World One Person at a Time - Gain hope, confidence and long-term sobriety. http://innergold.com
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claire
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 05:22 pm |
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Last edited on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 03:51 am by claire
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truthseeker
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 07:02 pm |
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Hi Claire,
If moving would have left the family member without care, that was a tremendously selfish thing for him even to ask! And no one but God knows if that move would have attained the results of his fantasies anyway. We are on this earth for a few decades, told that Christ has overcome the world, but while we are here there will be tribulation, which means we don't always get what we think we want. In Christ, though, we have all of eternity to be blissfully happy, so it does not make sense for a believer to expend negative emotional energy on the things of this life. Only when we can learn to be grateful for our current circumstances, do we have any hope of happiness now.
Sadly, it sounds like your husband is not close to understanding that.
Praying...
TruthSeeker
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InnerGold
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Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 11:32 pm |
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he stops and then starts again I guess. It is bad stuff, movies and men and women. It is shocking actually. Really bad stuff, ronchy and sick. Can someone address that? I am hoping that my writing is not sounding to disjointed. So much is on my mind, and the fear is the hardest. Fear? Fear of not being wanted.
Every addict has their cycle, some it's yearly, some it's daily, weekly or hourly. Addiction is vicious. You asked for someone to address the second part of this question the really bad stuff. Pornography starts out simple and innocent like any addiction; however, to get the high that a person used to experience, an addict will start to watch, view and participate in things that were despicable to them before. Their (the addicts) sense of what is right and wrong gets distorted and they may start to do things that were considered awful, disgusting or even over the bounds.
This is something you will want to be very careful with. You can read posts on forums where a man did things to his wife because he wanted to experience what he was watching. Please be very careful. This is a serious issue. I don't remember if you have children or not, but this cause for great alarm. I know an individual that this has destroyed his life (and some family members) because he just couldn't get control.
If you have children, this is your number one responsibility. Protect them at all costs!
____________________
Changing the World One Person at a Time - Gain hope, confidence and long-term sobriety. http://innergold.com
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claire
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Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 12:48 am |
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Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:09 am by claire
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 02:48 pm |
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Dear Claire,
I'm reading your posts and a learned helplessness is coming through to me today. You are letting him control you left, right, center, up, down, sideways.....any which way. It's time to put an end to that. You are not "serving" him by allowing this. You are enabling him.
Claim the power over your life for yourself. Repeat this: Claim the power. Claim the power. Claim the power. Repeat it until you internalize it. Don't allow yourself to be a ship without a rudder or a sail on a stormy sea that he controls. DO NOT ALLOW IT. Claim the power. Find your rudder. Find your sail. Find the map and compass. That will probably include the church, a Christian counselor and a 12-step program for wives of sex addicts. Repeat this: He, through his actions, has forfeited the right to act as the head of the household. He, through his actions, has forfeited the right to act as the head of the household. He, through his actions, has forfeited the right to act as the head of the household. Claim that power for yourself.
1. Don't allow him to determine whether you and your children will live free of the effects of porn and addiction. Decide that you and your children will live a life free of the effects of pornography and addiction and take steps to make that happen. Claim the power. Understand that may mean he may no longer be a part of your life or the lives of your children. I'm sure that is a frightening concept. (What positive things does he bring to the table? A check? What else?)
2. Take steps toward being partially or totally self-supporting. Get a job, start getting training, polish your resume, network. Start the process.
3. Take steps to force him into treatment.
4. Take steps to divorce him. Start the process. Find a lawyer, preferably one who has dealt with mental health issues.
Please don't allow him to control you anymore. Repeat after me: I WILL LIVE A LIFE FREE OF THE EFFECTS OF PORNOGRAPHY. MY CHILDREN WILL TOO. Take steps to make it so.
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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claire
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Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 04:24 pm |
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I do think that I am controlled to a certain extent. Emotionally i can be backed into
a corner and then I think I let go of reality, I smooth things over and become a wife
that is ok with what ever is happening. That is beyond sad. Why do I want this
marriage? Why do I accept this behavior. What is wrong with me?
I have known this man for 3/4 of my life. We have gone though some very wonderful
and very hard times. What does he bring to the table? When he is not in his bondage,
his moods of depression or his bitterness, (I do not know what part the porn plays in
all of that, still) he brings humor and fun, talents that inspire so many, working together
on things we love. Outings with the kids where we all have so much fun, seeking God
sometimes. I know how bad things are, how one day is ok and the next is not. I still
wonder how the porn is affecting him, his moods, his life, his marriage. It has to affect
his character. I dont know if I hold on because i feel like a failure or if I am afraid to be
alone. I really feel that I love him, I really dont like the way he treats me. He has said that
as his wife I should just shut up and do what he says. He says I control everything, I
have the power. I dont see that but I know that I am a moral and good person who
runs the house well, mostly... I feel like I am swimming in a big barrel of water, no place to
stop and rest, I just go round and round. Is he the one keeping me afraid to bring things
up? Afraid to address the issues of porn and verbal abuse because if I do he threatens me?
Is he aware of what he is doing , controlling me, or is this just his way of dealing with
people?
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InnerGold
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Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 04:31 pm |
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| He is aware of what he is doing. He is aware when he has control and when he does not. You even mentioned this in one of your previous posts when you were talking about depression. He could not control you then and he did not like it. He realizes he needs you. What you need to realize is that you are powerful. I agree with the affirmations that Devastated gave you.
____________________
Changing the World One Person at a Time - Gain hope, confidence and long-term sobriety. http://innergold.com
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