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claire
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Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 07:39 pm |
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Last edited on Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 08:56 pm by claire
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InnerGold
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Posted: Mon Mar 1st, 2010 08:16 pm |
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Wow! this is awful. I am terribly sorry you are having to deal with this.
Do you have any children?
Recovery will only help those who want to be helped. The old adage, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, is true!" If you think he would take the advice, it would never hurt to show him an article or two but he seem terribly abusive and this could make it worse.
He has to recognize he has the problem. Right now it sounds like he is in denial and does not want to admit he has a problem. At least, he does not want to admit to himself that he has a problem.
To answer your question, "Can porn create anger/discontentment?"
Yes
Here are a few signs and symptoms of sexual addiction issues:
Disengaged
Not fully present when with others
Exhaustion – both physically and emotionally
Feel like two different people
Secret behaviors
Embarrassed about personal behaviors
Deliberately vague: Omit facts, distort truth when questioned and stay out of the light.
Avoid direct questions
Tend to isolate
Easily frustrated
Use anger as a weapon to control others
Low self-esteem
Build up self by putting others down
Fatigue
Foggy mind
Attempt to change the subject and confuse by introducing irrelevant material.
Agree without commitment (say ‘yes’ without any commitment to it)
Claim to be changed after doing the right thing only briefly.
Accuse others of misunderstanding.
____________________
Changing the World One Person at a Time - Gain hope, confidence and long-term sobriety. http://innergold.com
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 03:31 am |
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Dear Claire,
I'm so sorry you find yourself in this situation. I can relate....believe me, I relate. You are describing classic symptoms of a porn addiction. The important things for you to keep in mind are: You didn't cause this, you can't cure it, you can't control it. The only person you can truly change is you. That said............
He will only acknowledge his illness and take action when the consequences of NOT acknowledging his sickness and NOT taking action are more detrimental than the status quo. In short, you have to make his life a living hell..........until he acknowledges the problem and seeks treatment.
1. What leverage do you have on him? What leverage can you muster? Can you get control of the majority of the assets? Are you self-supporting? Could you be self-supporting?
2. If so, assume control of all the assets you can.
3. Prepare to move. Look at apartments, condos, whatever is within your ability to stroke a check and move.
4. Change all of your beneficiary designations........IRA's, Life insurance.....401(k)'s will require his approval.
5. Remove everything of value from the house.
6. See a divorce attorney, have a marital settlement agreement drawn that with withstand court challenge.
7. Pray.
8. Confront him. Force him to acknowledge his problem. Force him into treatment. Keep control of all the assets until you are confident he is truly in recovery. Remember, addicts are the most adept liars in the world. He will tell you what he thinks you want to hear...anything to return to status quo. Don't buy it. Talk is cheap. Action, is the only thing that you should accept as proof of his healing.
9. Keep him under your thumb for two years....minimum.
10. Decide at the end of two years whether to stay in the marriage. My sense is that not many marriages survive this. I'm 7 months post discovery, and I'm not at all sure this marriage will survive. I've found increasing evidence that he is simply going through the motions of recovery, not serious about actually recovering. Remember, addicts are the most adept liars in the world. Protect yourself first and foremost.
I'll be praying for you.......
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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InnerGold
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Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 03:39 pm |
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8. Confront him. Force him to acknowledge his problem. Force him into treatment. Keep control of all the assets until you are confident he is truly in recovery. Remember, addicts are the most adept liars in the world. He will tell you what he thinks you want to hear...anything to return to status quo. Don't buy it. Talk is cheap. Action, is the only thing that you should accept as proof of his healing.
Unfortunately, this will not work. He will go through the motions. He will make you think he is good but if he does not want to change for himself, he won't!
We have some clients in therapy for over 3 years before they finally recognized they had a problem and then, he finally started to truly recover and it is changing their (marriage) lives. Up to this point, it was just going through the motions.
I just want you to be aware of this, if you force him into treatment.
____________________
Changing the World One Person at a Time - Gain hope, confidence and long-term sobriety. http://innergold.com
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 04:32 pm |
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Yes, I realize that forcing someone into therapy is seldom successful and I said as much in point number 10.
My husband is going through the motions. I find increasing evidence of that on a daily basis. He is not "there" despite his proffered protestations that he is "sober." Bologna. If he was sober, he'd be there. I see improvements, but I still see evidence of active addiction. Talk is cheap and in his addicted mind, he still thinks I believe his BS. Nope. Wrong. Again. Still.
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My best, Devastated Wife
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InnerGold
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Posted: Tue Mar 2nd, 2010 04:36 pm |
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| Good for you! Keep your eyes open and continually watch for real growth. There is hope but it does take some time.
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Changing the World One Person at a Time - Gain hope, confidence and long-term sobriety. http://innergold.com
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jaybaines30
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 12:05 am |
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InnerGold wrote:
To answer your question, "Can porn create anger/discontentment?"
Yes
Here is the answer to the question "Can porn create anger/discontenment?"
NO, porn or any other addiction does not create anger/discontenment. The absolute reason behind anger/discontenment is incorrect withdrawal. If you correctly approach withdrawal you don't feel any anger/discontentment instead you feel wonderful and feel good about yourself and towards others. For more detailed info on how sex addiction works and how to overcome it contact me or visit my webpage http://www.addictioncontrol.blogspot.com
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InnerGold
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 12:54 am |
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Here is the answer to the question "Can porn create anger/discontenment?"
NO, porn or any other addiction does not create anger/discontenment. The absolute reason behind anger/discontenment is incorrect withdrawal. If you correctly approach withdrawal you don't feel any anger/discontentment instead you feel wonderful and feel good about yourself and towards others.
A symptom of an addiction is anger and discontentment. They will try to hide, run, dodge anything they can because they don't want to deal with their addiction. What Jay says is true but your original question and what you dealing with, the answer is, yes. It can cause anger, frustration, discontentment because it does not seem like he is wanting to change but deep down knows he should.
When you approach him, he gets angry because he knows something is wrong. It might not be because of withdrawal. It is simply because he is not ready to deal with it, yet.
____________________
Changing the World One Person at a Time - Gain hope, confidence and long-term sobriety. http://innergold.com
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 04:54 pm |
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InnerGold wrote: Here is the answer to the question "Can porn create anger/discontenment?"
NO, porn or any other addiction does not create anger/discontenment. The absolute reason behind anger/discontenment is incorrect withdrawal. If you correctly approach withdrawal you don't feel any anger/discontentment instead you feel wonderful and feel good about yourself and towards others.
A symptom of an addiction is anger and discontentment. They will try to hide, run, dodge anything they can because they don't want to deal with their addiction. What Jay says is true but your original question and what you dealing with, the answer is, yes. It can cause anger, frustration, discontentment because it does not seem like he is wanting to change but deep down knows he should.
When you approach him, he gets angry because he knows something is wrong. It might not be because of withdrawal. It is simply because he is not ready to deal with it, yet.
Addiction absolutely causes anger and discontentment. My husband used to be angry and withdrawn for no reason. He used to be moody for no reason. Even before I knew he was a porn addict, I would often feel like I had to walk on egg shells. That's not "normal." It's a dead giveaway to those who understand. The more I read about addiction, the more I am convinced you can diagnose addiction without even seeing the person while they are under the influence. Attitude and actions give them away.
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My best, Devastated Wife
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InnerGold
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 05:13 pm |
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You nailed it, Devastated.
This is one of the things we tell parents to look for in their children. If they start to behave in a different way and are not themselves, this is a flag something is amiss.Last edited on Thu Mar 4th, 2010 05:13 pm by InnerGold
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 06:30 pm |
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PREFACE:
As I'm just now considering whether I will or will not go ahead and post this .... I see I have written a whole bunch of words ... maybe I have written principally for purposes of my own therapy, but it is true that porn and anger/discontentment have accompanied each other especially in the most difficult years of my life.
(--- let the reader beware, use at your own risk, below may or not be applicable in any way whatsoever with what you or your spouse have and/or are experiencing ---).
-- see bold paragraph below as quickest way to get to the point.
I notice Claire has apparently removed her comments, so I will make most of my comments here primarily to the thread's question itself, and not so much to the questioner (though I pray you are doing better Claire - as my heart hurts for you as it has for my wife when she has felt pain for some similar reasons).
I will speak here only about my own Anger and Discontentment as relates to viewing of photos of unclothed women (I don't think it makes things clear enough if I use the term "Porn" when referring to my rogue behavior because it can mean such radically different things ... as I've explained in various posts throughout previous years, for over 40 years of being unhappy with my addiction to seeking out the feelings which accompany viewing of what I refer to as "the female form" - with or without accompanying masturbation - I have not yet "advanced" down the slippery slope starting with the desire to view one-single-unclothed-female-image-at-a-time (what I have referred to as "Soft-core Porn") to other ugly facets of what is often referred to as "Hardcore Porn".)
Sorry for the long parenthetical run-on sentence, but perhaps some of what I say might make more sense if you guys and/or gals know a bit of background about the type of porn user I am (or have been, depending on how one views me).
I have been very ANGRY and very DISCONTENTED in relation to my use of soft-core porn. And sometimes I think that Anger and Discontent has been accidentally directed toward my wife and and our kids. However, there are (I think) other sources where most likely my Anger and Discontentment have really been aimed --- Myself, the Bible, the Power of God, and what I have understood the Church to be saying they could/would offer me in order to help me obey Jesus. I think maybe one of the reasons my family was taking the brunt of my anger is because I really just couldn't bear to think there could possibly be anything wrong with the other possible sources.
I've been a Christian since as long as I can remember - at least by age 6 I have thought I had done everything the Bible says I needed to do in order to be able to call myself a Christian. For instance, as early as 7 years old I would pray fervently each day and night - often deeply meditating on the Lord's prayer specifically, and asking for God's blessings on each extended family member each night as I lay in bed in the process of going to sleep.
I've always desired to have a clear conscious and obey everything Jesus commands us. However, like the description the apostle Paul provides in Romans 7, I have struggled with obedience. Jesus' command about "lust" has been the big problem for me. While I was very young I rationalized my apparently contradictory behavior by considering what Jesus meant by "lust" to be limited to desiring a physical relationship with a specific woman (other than my future wife) and I unilaterally decided that the term "lust" as Jesus used it would not be applicable to enjoying the "female form" in general - especially if I were to project in my "mind's eye" that my future wife would one day be of similar form and would meet whatever need or compulsion which was drawing me to what others might consider "dirty pictures" but which I would consider "truly beautiful" because God was the creator of that form which I felt to be so significant.
Here are some of my thoughts (random order) about why my use of Porn has "created" Anger/Discontent in me, not only toward myself but also what I'll refer to as "God's provision to help me obey Him while I am in this world" (i.e. in this less than perfect world).
-- Though I had produced for myself what appeared to be a somewhat functional loophole in what most would consider Jesus had in mind when he used the term which is translated into english as "lust" ... still I knew there was something wrong about those photographs (in my very young years I had been only exposed to Playboy centerfold types of pictures). The thing that bothered me the most I remember was the mindset about sexuality which was obvious when I saw comics on the other side of centerfold pictures. It has never made make sense to me (even from a non-religious viewpoint) that people would refer to the very act which brought us into physical existence with such a "flip" attitude. Even when I was 8 or 9 years old I remember thinking that people are worth of respect so shouldn't we treat with respect the way new people come into existence? Seeing the form which I considered to be worthy of the most respect possible usually being presented in magazines (found on the desert) where respect for sexuality was so much lacking - also caused me anger and discontentment I suppose would be an accurate thing to say.
OK - back to the link with my use of porn and my anger ...
-- I'm angry at myself because I don't show my love for Jesus by keeping His commandment to avoid lust. That really does make me mad - and confused - because I really do love Jesus (or at least I think I do, even though - by his very words - I must not really love him, since He says something to the effect of : "If you love me, you will keep my commandments).
-- I'm angry at what appears like it may be a lack of God's power because I get the idea from reading the Bible and listening to what preachers say about the subject, that God will provide a way - a way that will work - which will help me obey Him. Either God has not provided such a way, or the way He has provided is something I haven't learned about yet, or I know the way but refuse to do my part so the way simply does not work for me because I am too bad (and that brings me back to me being angry with myself).
-- I'm angry with the church because it seems to basically be saying "just trust in God and He will help you be good" - but my life is a testimony proving it's simply not that simple. I'm discontent because I think the church helped to get my hopes up (that I could be good after all, in the way they define "good") but my hopes must have been set much too high and I guess the church has just not been realistic and/or honest enough to allow me to see that, though for some, perhaps it is just that simple - for others (like myself) there's more to being obedient than just Loving and Trusting God.
-- I have been angry and discontented with the Bible also. I'm not certain whether my anger and discontentment with the Bible has been justified or if perhaps the blame here should fall on both myself and/or people in the church in connection with looking at what the Bible is designed to accomplish - I no longer can believe what I thought I was being taught from such an early age. I was taught (and I hoped) that the Bible would provide pretty much EVERYTHING I would need to be able to live a Godly life. As it turns out some of the years when I refused to seek help from other sources are the very years when I was hurting may family the most (disobedience) - and now, in the last couple of years, I've received good help by taking bipolar and anti-depressant types of medicines (Tianeptine, Wellbutrin, and Lithium specifically). The mind-emotional related "issues" which I apparently inherited from my mother's side of the family were a part of what was making it harder for me to stop sinning (i.e. most specifically the sin of acting out in anger toward my wife and kids). I don't see the Bible pointing us to the use of corrective medicine to help us in our quest to avoid sin. I found it much easier to reduce some of my sinful habits (again ... being angry at family members to the point of yelling, etc...) after taking medicines even though I had previously prayed for help and searched the scriptures thinking "the key" would be in a specific command there.
My anger and discontentment kept getting more and more pronounced the older I became. Probably because in the early days I kept assuming there is hope I will eventually find the "missing key" - for instance maybe I just don't quite understand something the Bible is saying ... but when I find it ... (and I searched the scriptures diligently) ... then I'll finally experience the victory the apostle Paul speaks about in Romans 8. But as the years passed without finding "the key" - I started to lose hope and my anger became more pronounced. Yes perhaps (as most anyone associated with the church would say) the problem was completely in my court and not in either God's court, the church, or the bible's court ... but even if that's true -- it just makes me even more ANGRY WITH MYSELF --- and the effect on my family was pretty much the same I think ... Me being ANGRY (whether at God, Church, Bible , and perhaps most especially ME) always rubs off on how I interact with them.
As usual whenever I get into this subject I get out of control.
Sorry for going on and on without telling anyone "the key" - i.e., how I miraculously found victory (I don't know that I have yet).
Well, if you're still reading this then perhaps I'll go ahead and say one more thing which perhaps may be of some help to someone ...
If you are a wife and your husband still sincerely wants to make love to you in a respectful way that shows he treasures you for and who you really are ... then I suggest that you try very hard not to take too personally the fact that he looks at images of naked women. If he says something to the effect: "I love you very much and my problem does not indicate anything negative about you or how I feel about you" - then (based on my personal experience anyway) that could be completely true. In my own case that has always been true.
I bear each day the burden of thinking I could be awaiting an eternity in hell given that I evidently don't love Jesus enough to be able to obey him by refraining from the sin of adultery manifesting itself through lust. My wife has given me perhaps the greatest gift I've ever received ... which is her willingness to let God handle my punishment while she believes me when I say "I Love You".
I know each and every situation is different - and I'm not trying to sway anyone in any way (for instance I haven't even read the first post in this thread since it's been removed) - I have just wanted to say a few things about my own journey. I hope much will continue to change about my attitudes -- for instance I hope to continue to let go of my anger and discontentment, and I'm thinking as I do I'll continue to find more freedom from what has bound me.
(Addendum I do find it interesting that I've never really felt much (if any) anger and/or discontentment with Jesus himself (though arguably most of what I know of him is from the Bible). As I've mentioned in other posts on this site, I wish I understood more about the now-popular concept of "a relationship with Jesus Christ" ... perhaps I am involved in such a relationship (after all) and that's why I haven't also been angry toward Him???
-Dennis
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 08:15 pm |
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dennis1soil wrote: My anger and discontentment kept getting more and more pronounced the older I became.
If you are a wife and your husband still sincerely wants to make love to you in a respectful way that shows he treasures you for and who you really are ... then I suggest that you try very hard not to take too personally the fact that he looks at images of naked women. If he says something to the effect: "I love you very much and my problem does not indicate anything negative about you or how I feel about you" - then (based on my personal experience anyway) that could be completely true. In my own case that has always been true.
You're dreaming. We've been ignored, belittled and tolerated rather than loved, honored and cherished. We've been lied to repeatedly. We've been mocked. We've been treated with disrespect. We've been told that we are responsbile for his addiction. If you think for an instant that we will believe that "he" loves us in any way shape or form, even if he says it with sincerity, you're delusional.
Sign me, NOT BUYING IT.
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 08:49 pm |
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>> Sign me, NOT BUYING IT.
No problem. I'm not selling anything.
God will determine if I'm lying - and I'm good with that.
-Dennis
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Mar 4th, 2010 10:31 pm |
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Devastated Wife : I don't question whether there are women who truly fit the bill about whom you were referring when you said "We've" (in the below sentences) :
>>>> We've been ignored, belittled and tolerated rather than loved, honored and cherished. We've been lied to repeatedly. We've been mocked. We've been treated with disrespect. We've been told that we are responsbile for his addiction. If you think for an instant that we will believe that "he" loves us in any way shape or form, even if he says it with sincerity, you're delusional. <<<<
However, when you used the term "You're" - I have first hand knowledge you were likely incorrect when referring to my post. :
>>>>> You're dreaming. <<<<<
....
Devastated Wife : what I say below is not intended to be something lashing out against you personally. Rather, I want to try to show why I'd like you to consider "toning down" - or at a least qualifying - what I consider to be the hard -line stance you've taken previously in this thread. (I don't doubt that you may be absolutely correct about the best way for you to respond to your husband, however, that doesn't mean it's a good idea to suggest similar steps in the "General Discussion" forum where perhaps any wife and/or husband like myself - who might not be best served by such severe steps - may be repelled).
A DIFFICULT CONUNDRUM:
I've been away from this board for a long time now. Perhaps either it's purpose has changed or maybe it never was intended to be along the lines I was thinking.
My thought was this board was originally designed as a place where guys like myself could go in hopes of receiving help in the process of becoming free primarily from the "lust" aspect of the bondage of sin.
I noticed during the period when I was most active on this forum that more gals started posting, either because they too wanted help in overcoming sexual addictions and/or also women who wanted to understand more about how and/or why their husband could have possibly been enslaved by such.
I was hoping this forum was not designed to be place for people to question whether I am telling the truth when I am honest, I've already questioned most everything thing about myself including my own honesty (or lack thereof) throughout most of my life. Most of the time whenever I have been honest enough to admit and truly describe "my problem", to pastor's etc... they have acted either as if I was lying or they would give me the "wise council" that if my wife were only to have sex with me more often - then the problem would go way -- i.e., based on a single Bible passage which apparently wraps the whole subject up in a nice easy to solve bow ("Bologna" - to use a word from this thread by Devastated Wife. I say "Bologna" in response to the advice suggesting my wife can unilaterally be the solution to a problem I have fought with since long before we ever met).
I understand how wives who have been devastated by their husbands need a safe place where they too can be honest without having to put up with the possibility of being grilled by some guy (or guys) like me.
So here's the conundrum ... by allowing someone like Devastated Wife the freedom to vent, it's possible shell-shocked guys like myself may be driven away.
For instance, stuff like the points I quote below does not encourage me to consider this a "safe place" :
...
2. If so, assume control of all the assets you can.
...
5. Remove everything of value from the house.
...
6. See a divorce attorney, have a marital settlement agreement drawn that with withstand court challenge.
...
9. Keep him under your thumb for two years....minimum
I'm not trying to take sides in other people's private struggles.
I have written this because my guess is this: were I a newcomer here - after reading the post from which those quotes were extracted - if I didn't see any subsequent replies mentioning there might be some situations where such measures might not be the best way for each wife to respond to a husband who admits having looked at porn ... well, I doubt I'd stay here long enough to benefit much from God's "blazing grace".
-Dennis
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TM2
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 01:51 am |
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Several comments on this thread:
(1) I want to commend Dennis for his personal honesty.
(2) Dennis talks about this board being a safe place for addicts to recover and to help one another. It also is a safe place for spouses and other affected by addiction not just to vent but to recover and to help one another. If we addicts choose to read spouses' threads, then we're going to encounter some pain and some harsh words directed at people like us. We can either accept that and learn from it or stop reading those threads.
(3) I think DW's reply giving claire advice on how to keep herself safe was entirely appropriate. In fact, having read what claire has told us of her story, I think DW's suggestions were quite moderate and restrained. If they don't apply to some of us now, well and good. We can accept that they are for another person in another situation. But to give sensible advice on how to protect oneself in an abusive situation should always be welcomed.
(4) A lot of wives here have been controlled by husbands who have tried to regulate their lives, who have governed by force and threat, who have decided what their wives could and could not know and do. With that background, Dennis' phrasing of his conundrum is incredibly triggering: "by allowing someone like Devastated Wife the freedom to vent, it's possible shell-shocked guys like myself may be driven away." I hear a lot of things in this statement. I hear that what wives do here is just vent, not engage in healing and support for one another, which is what I think DW was doing. I hear that men can allow or not allow DW to speak. I hear that the decision on whether to allow women to speak has to be made at least in part based on what's good for men.
Now, I doubt very much that Dennis intends any of those things, but I think a great many wives in the abusive marriages that are common here will read the conundrum in that way. That conundrum seems to me to be a classic example of something that makes the forum feel unsafe to wives.
(5) I certainly read DW's remark, "You're dreaming" not to say that Dennis is dreaming about himself, but that Dennis is dreaming if he thinks wives are not going to take personally the fact that their husbands are viewing porn and disrespecting them. Am I wrong? By setting out to give advice to wives, we addicts are always walking onto dangerous ground. Hearing that we don't understand things from their point of view shouldn't surprise us. We often misunderstand. I think that if we're going to give advice to women injured by abusive people with our addiction, then we have to expect comments like this.
So for me, an important bottom line is that wives have an absolute right to assist one another, and that we guys need to get over it.
But all that said, I really want again to commend Dennis for being wiling to show himself so honestly and to put himself in a position of vulnerability.
At the risk of being misunderstood by making a personal inquiry after expressing some disagreement, could I ask one thing, Dennis? You write that it has always been true that you loved your wife, although sometimes you think your anger has been accidentally directed toward your wife and and kids. I wonder what your wife has to say about this, and how much you've talked to her about the connection between your addiction and issues like abuse and neglect?
I ask because as an active addict and in early recovery, I very much minimized the extent of my anger and abuse. I would have said about myself things very much like what you wrote, and I would have been dead wrong. "Sometimes think"? "Accidentally"? That may be your experience. You may be a saint among addicts. I'm not. It also took me a while to see that. I couldn't see my own abuse until my wife walked me through some examples, but now I see that both neglect and abuse have been huge parts of my life. I was stunned when my wife first described my behavior as abuse, and I thought she was mistaken; but she patiently stayed with me and explained herself, and she was completely right.
Now, you may well be a better and more loving person than I. Just because I and many other addicts have been abusive and unloving doesn't mean that you were. But I sure learned a lot by working with my wife and with a counselor to explore whether I had hurt her and how I had hurt her - was the hurt abuse or neglect, and how. You've probably sat down and asked how your wife felt hurt during your years as an active addict, what was worst, and whether it was abuse or neglect. What does she say? If you haven't had a series of conversations on that theme, though, I'd strongly recommend them. I learned a lot about myself and about what damage I need to try to repair in the lives of my wife and kids.
Just a thought on something that has been important to me.
Tim M.
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truthseeker
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 03:04 am |
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Tim, I appreciate your thoughtful comments. You covered it well.
To all members, this board is about sharing our experiences, taking what helps, and leaving the rest.
Those addicts who wish to bypass the often more emotionally charged experiences of wives might find that sticking mostly to the "Accountability" forum will help, and spouses who might prefer to have less likelihood that addicts will comment may find posting in the "Wives" forum to be advantageous.
The atypicality of any of our experiences does not invalidate the experiences of others, and I strongly encourage all members to keep that in mind when posting.
I am leaving all posts here for now, but if contention continues, I will delete them and lock this thread.
TruthSeeker
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 02:59 pm |
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Thank you Truthseeker and Tim. Your wisdom is evident to all.
I apologize if my words seem harsh or uncaring. Perhaps if you understood my background and experiences, you would understand. For the record...........
1. I am an attorney and CPA. My professional life requires clear, direct, unequivocal communication. I have no use for "wiggle words." I say what I mean, I mean what I say.
2. I have unknowlingly, unwittingly lived with a sex addict for 23 years. I will spare you the litany of abuses that I've suffered during that time, but they are extensive.
3. I have developed, instinctively, a tough-love stance against all nonsense. I have developed a thick skin. I have become quite adept at holding the mirror and forcing all, addicts and co-dependents, to look directly into the mirror and forcing them to face reality. It's what I do for a living. It's what I've learned to do with my husband through DECADES of emotional abuse and neglect.
4. I found this board in July after I found my husband's stash. Despite the years of abuse and neglect, despite my professional accomplishments, despite all..........I was devastated. This board was a life line for me. I continue to read it, post, in an effort to help other women through the trauma and to help other women protect themselves from ongoing abuse and trauma.
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My best, Devastated Wife
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 04:09 pm |
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Tim,
As always, I very much appreciate your post -- though my wife and I have spoken about how my actions hurt her, it would probably be a good idea for us to revisit that subject now since she has said she genuinely enjoyed being with me again for last year and a half or so. Pperhaps now that more distance is between her great pain we will be able to communicate better and I maybe I'll be more able to feel the crushing pain which comes with understanding the greater intensity of pain I caused her to feel. (Can't say I'm looking forward to experiencing more of that, but it will probably be a healthy thing for me to experience - maybe it will help me in the process of making good future decisions).
Tim, I also appreciate you mentioning that Devastated Wife may not have been primarily questioning my honesty when she said "You're Dreaming" and "I'm not buying it" -- if that's the case then I owe her an apology.
Devastated Wife, I am sorry for reacting too personally.
...
Truthseeker,
As always, I appreciate hearing from you. (I've always especially liked learning your take on various scripture verses and passages.)
Perhaps you will feel like you need to erase this post and freeze this thread because of the comments I'm about to make, and if so I understand. I believe the decision to give you that authority is a good one and I have always trusted you to exercise your authority appropriately.
Maybe if there can be anything "redeeming" about my quoting some of the suggested steps perhaps it would be in relation to how some might be less than helpful for men who are here seeking help in changing their behavior. (btw, I like the suggestion about considering which forum in which to post based on the content of the reply - forgive me if this is once again outside the spirit of that helpful suggestion).
I want to point to a different thread here in this General Discussion forum which I just re-read it this morning (as I was trying to remember what I had learned in earlier visits here). In association with suggested point number 9 - I thinking it may be helpful for folks to consider what is being discussed beginning toward the second half of the topic ... in response to Denise11's question:
>>> Is it that it's forbidden and men know it's wrong which makes it more exciting?
==== The thread's title is: "I just don't understand" and here's a link to it: http://blazinggrace.org/forums/forum21/1669.html
I'm suggesting there COULD be a connection with the "forbidden" concept discussed in the "I just don't understand" thread and the earlier suggested point of action numbered 9 (i.e. reading the suggested point through the eyes of an addict)
>>> 9. Keep him under your thumb for two years....minimum.
I can remember times when I would turn to porn perhaps primarily just because I didn't think it was appropriate for my wife to tell me what to do with what I considered "my" sexuality, especially when (as I mistakenly thought at the time) she really didn't desire to share any of "her" sexuality with me (given it didn't appear to me as if there was much of that left to share anyway --- as it turns out, that was mostly due to a series of things which had lessened her sex drive such as scars from a near death child-bearing experience and my own lack of sensitivity to the pain during intercourse she bore quietly, and perhaps greater than that, my ongoing critical spirit of things in her life she has never been good at doing and my personality switching from being mostly positive to mostly negative - not to mention my mental illness which I waited way too long time before taking medication for since I didn't see a Bible passage saying to "take your meds as a way to help stop criticizing your wife and kids" etc.. etc... ).
Thankfully I believe I am pretty much past that point of delusion now (i.e. about seeing a distinction between "my" sexuality and "her"s, I'm trying to consider sexuality only as "ours"). However, at the time in my life when I first visited this site, I truly believe if I had read through those suggested points of action -- I would have left (not only this site - but also been even more angry with Christianity in general) especially if I felt those views were in any way OK'd by Christianity in general. I was looking for blazing graze and I would not have felt a taste for such by reading through those posts (admittedly again, not by reading through the eyes of the addict I was and/or am).
Truthseeker: again, feel free to edit this post in any way you see fit.
If you feel there is no value in pointing people to the other thread then I understand.
Devastated Wife: I suspect the pain you have experienced is much greater than anything I have experienced ... and I'm not trying to increase it by making these comments. However given the investment of your time here I think you want to consider all angles anything which may be of help to either your own husband and/or other devastated wife's husbands in finding freedom (perhaps some husbands may not be as "far gone" as others). I am only suggesting you (and/or anyone else) might want to read (in that topic) especially Tim M.'s comments relating to the concept of how SHAME can trigger an addict's acting out.
The image invoked by the phrase: "keep him under your thumb" IMHO (if achievable) is something which I think would cause most men to feel Shame. For instance, if the definition provided by Tim M. in the "I just don't understand" topic were applicable to me - and I was the husband who my wife felt she was keeping under her thumb, then .. (again in my opinion, based solely on how I personally have felt and acted) the mindset behind that step I don't think would be helpful in the process of my recovery.
(One "natural" reaction for me if ever I have sensed my wife is thinking she is keeping me under her thumb, so to speak, is to act in a way to prove - to at least myself - that she is mistaken and that not only does she not have the "right" to control me like she might smash a bug under her thumb, but clearly she does not control me in such a way.)
---- Now I realize the image I just brought up about the bug was not at all what was intended (probably not even anywhere remotely close) ... but, I'm trying to help others see how a man can react to that kind of language. I'm not saying such a reaction is appropriate, I'm just being honest (which can have a tendency to get posts banned - and perhaps rightly so...).
-Dennis
P.S. (Sorry for the lack of organization and lack of editing on this post - I need to get to work, so I don't have to make up any more missed time, during this week-end).
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 04:19 pm |
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Dennis,
I wonder, if your wife was an out of control alcoholic or out of control drug addict, raging at you and the kids, emotionally unavailable.......abusive........neglectful................if I had given YOU the same advice I gave to Claire, how would you see it?
That is meant to be a question that prompts self-examination. I don't expect an answer......
My best, Devastated Wife
Last edited on Fri Mar 5th, 2010 04:50 pm by Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Mar 5th, 2010 07:29 pm |
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Hi again Tim,
I sometimes go back and re-read threads, maybe even threads which were active before I started coming to a board regularly.
Your point numbered (3) is likely very appropriate, however since Claire's posts have been removed (presumably describing her story and the extent of her husband's actions) - if anyone reads this thread in the future, they won't know about the background or what specifically prompted the advice including the suggested steps.
Please, I don't want anyone to read me wrong ... I'm not trying to sound like I'm soft on abusers like myself. To tell the truth, one of the things which started me being angry and discontented (reminiscent of this thread's title) is that I don't see the Bible outlining an efficient enough way for women to protect themselves from abusive husbands (at least not "efficient enough" or "clear enough" for my tastes anyway.
Probably it would be good for me to be convinced the Bible actually supports such "tough love" steps (for whoever is the abused spouse)... because I think that would help reduce my anger (at least toward the Bible) which I think is caused by not being satisfied that it can and should be used as "an Owner's instruction manual for living a satisfied and contented human life" -- for instance, I would like to see how the Bible could be appropriately interpreted to support either the spirit prompting the suggested steps or the actual process of carrying them out.
I want to see a way to use the Bible to provide a CLEAR way for abused women to protect themselves (both physically and emotionally) from husbands who don't love them in any way even resembling how Christ loves His bride - us - the church.
Again, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I want to see a clear Biblical plan for how abused women in general should protect themselves from all those other bad husbands out there ... rather, I'm saying I want to see a clear Biblical plan for how my abused wife could have and/or can protect herself from me (the abusing husband).
below are my comments to "Devastated Wife" and all devastated wives :
My opinion of what the Bible supports is only that "my" (an abuser's) opinion. I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about how you understandably may feel or respond to being treated in abusive ways which have hurt you with pain in intensities I can't even imagine - and have certainly never endured myself. My comments in this thread if they are of any value at all (which you definitely have a right to question) ... are intended primarily to let anyone who cares know how this one twisted guy reacted when I read the "suggested steps" that I quoted). I apologize in advance for any additional pain my words have caused and/or will cause if anyone reads this in the future.
-Dennis
(Sorry for such slopiness again, I'm making too hasty posts today - I guess I'm a bit riled up by this subject)Last edited on Fri Mar 5th, 2010 07:32 pm by dennis1soil
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