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truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 04:19 am |
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Hi Dennis,
It seems that we are talking past one another to a degree. My point was not to explore the truths of my husbands motivations, rather to present how I, and many women who have written here, feel when we discover that even so much as our husband's eyes have been unfaithful. These are the gut emotional responses that send us reeling in agony and confusion, before one conversation has taken place concerning the matter. Because a husband's value of his wife's appearance is so integral to a woman's perception of being loved, the concept that he would deliberately give more than passing notice of another woman's attractiveness, let alone contemplate another nude woman's attractiveness, is crushing to our core. Though it is the man who is in the role of modeling Christ to his wife, I think most women, as God designed marriage to be exclusive, view the presence of any significant attention to another woman, even a two-dimensional one, to reek with the putrid essence of idolatry, since we are supposed to be the only one.
One of the challenges of sharing Christ with those from polytheistic backgrounds is not that they refuse to include Jesus in their collection, but that they cannot fathom excluding all others, but that is precisely what our Creator requires.
Back to those initial emotional reactions, which can be phenominally difficult to reason us out of, even if they are not true. As best as I can recall, some five years later, not necessarily in a specific order, these were some of those gut responses:
"I can't compete--the weight, the stretch marks, the sagging chest. I am no longer beautiful to him. He just tells me that those things don't matter so he won't hurt my feelings, but really he can't stand to look at me. Does he think about their perfect bodies when we are in bed? Is there anything I can do to keep from losing him? I wonder if there's been an affair--if he's waiting for just the right time to leave me, like my dad left my mom for a younger woman? If I were more interested, would he stop looking at them? If I do so out of fear, that is not love. Does he even love me at all anymore? Is he just staying for the kids? I don't think I'll even be able to change in his presence without thinking about how old and ugly I must look to him after looking at them. Should I just leave without saying anything? How would I tell our kids why, and leave them with any respect for their father? What kind of example is this for sons! I couldn't leave them with him, but I couldn't support them in this area on my own, and it wouldn't be fair to move them away from their school and friends at their ages. Can I really stand to live with this rejection? How can he sit next to me in church each week without any conviction? How can he maintain a straight face when he says he loves me? A christian marriage--yeah, right! How will I face anyone? What will I say to our families?"
My presumption, and I think that of most women, is that he wouldn't look at them if he still thought I was beautiful.
It is the behavior in and of itself that belies any affirmation of our attractiveness, regardless of whatever is in our husband's mind.
TruthSeeker
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truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 04:26 am |
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Hi Dennis,
One other thought. It is not so much that affirming my appearance increased my responsiveness, but I think few men are so dense as to fail to understand that hurting my feelings with critique would certainly have diminished it.
TruthSeeker
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 04:36 am |
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Devastated Wife wrote:
I'd like to suggest that you read about the truth behind "the art."
http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/truthbehindfantasyporn
Devastated Wife:
Thanks for the link!
I have read and downloaded video etc. where Shelly has spoke and I've always agreed completely with most all points she makes.
The porn hellholes she has fortunately survived through are different than the porn hellholes one might find at a centerfold shoot.
She did hard-core porn - and unlike other "actresses" she fortunately has come through drug addiction and addiction to the money, etc.. So as far as I know, with God's help together with her husband they seem pretty much free! I don't know if it's still on her site, but a long time ago I downloaded a video of her speaking in front of a really big audience at some church. It's really worth watching. It's a pretty big download though because I think it's about an hour long. She tells her life story - beginning from having a tough childhood (which is almost always the case for people in hard-core porn). If I remember correctly, She met a preacher's kid who had gone the wrong way in life - it was especially interesting to me since I am also a preacher's kid. It was good for my heart to see that both he and she were accepted again by God (Blazing Grace!) and became happily married - I really hope their marriage is still doing good (I expect it probably is, after all they made it through together).
I'll try to go back and get some specifics maybe in future posts - to show how it appears when people hear or see the word "porn" they tend first to think of (at least) two people being filmed either simulating or actually involved in sexual acts. When I have spoken about my use of "porn" that's usually not at all what I'm talking about. I'm not saying I haven't come across some of that - as it's pretty hard to avoid these days. But I have spent a very, very small percentage time looking at the kind of material Shelly communicates mostly about (certainly in that link). Actually, I did once watch maybe 5 to 10 minutes of a video of the type that can be downloaded from one of the most popular internet sites, and - I almost wanted to throw up - because of the apparent willingness of a young girl (18 maybe) involved in such casual sex with multiple "partners" who she had just met. I HATE THAT KIND OF THING.
Sorry - I'll try to get back to material in the previous posts.
It seems like - in reading through the lines of several of the recent replies to my posts - I get the idea you guys may think in some ways I'm fine with my involvement with porn and/or think it has basically been a fairly innocent and/or pure experience, since I have recognized through it that God is like a good Artist.
If that's what anyone thinks I think, then that person is wrong. Yes, I have acted as if that's what I must think for many, many years - but that's not what my conscious brain "thinks".
I suppose I could go back and copy some of my sentences in here and try to explain to you why I think they reveal my true opinion. But at this point I need to head on to bed, so for now I'll just try to say clearly:
I wish I had never seen a single Playboy Centerfold. I know my wife (and my life) would have been better. I wish not even one man would have ever painted and/or photographed a single woman without her clothes with the intent that such would be viewed by men who are married and/or men who are not yet married etc... I wish that no woman (and/or girl) would have ever been so in need (of whatever kind) that she would voluntarily allow herself to be painted and or photographed in the nude for the kind of purpose mentioned above. And most certainly I wish no person - man or woman - would have ever coerced any one - male or female - into a situation where their body was used for purposes like mentioned above!
Above I am also referring to such a world renown artist as Michelangelo. By the way, it's my understanding that his teacher counseled him not to paint people in the nude (I don't mean him, I mean the person being pained). I understand the conversation went something to this effect:
"But I want to show them as God sees them"
and his teacher replied something to the effect of :
"Yes, but we are not God".
-----------------
I write here as a way to be able to see how others react - which is why I appreciate your post.
I have learned due to my mental problems (bi-polar, etc...) the best way to know how I'm doing in most any area these days is to ask someone else! One of the marks of mental illness is I think sort of like being drunk (though I don't have experience there). When I have mental problems, I almost always think I'm doing just fine (duhh, my mind is not in good enough shape to be able to evaluate "how I'm doing"). So I ask my wife usually and her opinion is almost always better than mine. (I think a drunk person may think he's sober even when he's not).
Now, at this time anyway - my wife doesn't really want to hear some of the stuff I write here - which I understand. So I suppose part of the reason I write here is to see where other people think I'm crazy (or, at least that's part of the reason).
-Dennis
(I'm not going through to edit this post much - I might not even send it if I did - but maybe some of this is good for you folks to know. I appreciate how much of your time you spend and if by knowing some of this you think you it would be better to find other places to use your time, I completely understand. I want you to know I appreciate what you've done so far!)
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truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 04:50 am |
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Hi Dennis,
I realize that DW is more than capable of responding for herself, but this is my off the cuff reaction to part of what you wrote to her:
"The porn hellholes she has fortunately survived through are different than the porn hellholes one might find at a centerfold shoot."
And you have exactly how much experience in either scenario? How many women with either background have you known, or even interviewed? Are you really so naive as to believe that the absence of men in the photos makes them somehow less demeaning?!
TruthSeeker
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 09:39 am |
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truthseeker wrote:
...
And you have exactly how much experience in either scenario? How many women with either background have you known, or even interviewed? Are you really so naive as to believe that the absence of men in the photos makes them somehow less demeaning?!
Hi Truthseeker,
I have no personal "on the scene" experience in either scenario and I have not personally interviewed any women who have endured either hellhole. However I do read and listen to what women who have been in such situations have to say about their experiences.
The several women who I'm specifically recalling are now Christians, including Shelly and several others who have modeled either exclusively in playboy type environments and/or a couple of other women who have started in such, then "progressed" into what is generally referred to as soft-core involving simulated scenes with other people, (e.g. like in raunchy R-rated movies).
I used to listen to many of the Blazing Grace radio shows before they stopped appearing on this site (I hope they are back now but I haven't checked recently). That's where I first heard Shelly Luben talking - later, I started doing some google searches, which is when I learned there are other women who are telling what "really goes on".
I also remember downloading several radio programs where a guy named Donny was explaining the porn business from the perspective of one of the photographers. Btw, he is also a preacher's kid - was was mad at the church at the time when he ran a photography-and-web-site business out of his home.
One of the young ladies Donny had previously photographed agreed to speak with him on a radio program (after he had apologized to her following when he decided to follow Christ and left that world). As it turns out she had grown up in a church attending family all her life and later regretted immensely having turned to earning money that way. I don't recall her saying anything about feeling degraded during the few "shoots" she did, however she explained very fervently about how bad she felt in the aftermath (especially as high school classmates started contacting her after seeing her online, etc...). She was genuinely pleading with other girls who might be listening that they stay away from that "easy money".
Also that guy Donny appeared with a pastor for a non-conventional "Church" who ministers mostly to people still in the porn business (shelly supports that church - or did when I last read through her website) ... Donny and that pastor were involved in debates (at college campuses mostly I think) with one of the most famous male "porn stars". He would usually have some famous female from the business "on his side" so to speak. I'll check later if the links for a video of one of those meetings is still on You-Tube ... it was also on the web-site of MS-NBC I think (or one of the big networks) for quite a while.
Oh well - maybe this is not all that important - but I'm trying to answer your question about why I thought I had learned enough to be able to say what I did.
...
Sadly, I have something also to say about the last question included in the quote box. I guess it depends on which person would define "demeaning" -- from the viewpoint of the "actress"? or from the perspective of someone like you or I?, or from God's perspective.
According to what they say, not all the women consider all such situations "demeaning" (by viewing that video I mentioned from MSNBC you can see what I mean)... Now I understand Shelly would most likely take offense and say women who say they don't feel like they are treated in a demeaning manner are most likely lying. But sadly, you and I (and even Shelly) have been raised in very different environments in comparison to how many of the women involved today, in most part of the sordid porn business, (that is, if what I read is anywhere near correct).
For instance, a very shocking read is a book titled "Female Chauvinist Pigs", written by a former feminist who explains scenes she encountered researching the book (in Florida mostly) where many, many teenage girls were literally competing for the "honor" of being in such "films" as "Girls gone crazy" and the ilk.
I'm very sorry that this country is not even close to how it was in our youth (i.e. for people around our age)- and/or - as folks who spend most of their time in church today may assume it is.
-DennisLast edited on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 09:52 am by dennis1soil
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 12:28 pm |
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Dennis,
Truthseeker speaks the truth when she says her husband complimented her simply to keep her sexually available. We, the wives of sex addicts, have all been lied to and manipulated.
You as much as say you've done the same thing. You try various ways to reach your end goal, but they are MANIPULATIONS to reach YOUR end goal. What is wrong with this picture?
Instead of MANIPULATING your wife into what you want, maybe it might be better to meet HER NEEDS so that she wants to be intimate with you?
Instead of pursuing her from a self-centered, self-obsessed point of view, try meeting HER NEEDS for a change. Do you see the difference? Stop proceeding from a self-obsessed, sex-obsessed point of view. Your wife is a diamond with many facets. It's clear to me that you've only been looking at one facet. Try looking at the others and seeing her as a whole person.
And as to one of your other posts..........Truthseeker is again correct.........A PORN HELLHOLE IS A PORN HELLHOLE IS A PORN HELLHOLE. Don't try to play games with yourself and convince yourself or tell yourself there is any difference whatsoever in the level of objectification or the damage done to women as a whole by the type of acts filmed. That is another self-delusion.
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 01:40 pm |
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Hi Dennis and DW,
I need to unequivocally set the record straight.
I DID NOT comment on the ultimate truth or falsehood of whether or not my husband lied about still finding me attractive, or of any motivations in doing so. My comment was STRICTLY to relate my thought process upon finding out about his porn use, prior to any discussion, or what we ultimately learned about ourselves or our marriage.
I am sorry if I have not communicated clearly, resulting in misunderstanding, but please do not take exception to what I did not mean, or use what I did not mean to confirm your own experiences.
TruthSeeker
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 02:40 pm |
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Fair enough, Truthseeker. Perhaps I did not read carefully.
Let me say, unequivocally, I've been lied to so many times in so many ways that my presumption has changed. Whereas I used to presume my husband was telling me the truth, I now presume that he is lying until proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he is telling me the truth. He, through his actions, has forfeited the presumption of innocence. He could tell me the sky is blue, and I'd have to confirm that before I believed him.
He now tells me that I'm beautiful. Pretends to admire my nude body. That started after I found the porn and after I threatened to throw him and his stuff into the street. I don't believe a word of it and he mistakenly believes I care.
All of my efforts to lose weight, the self-denial throughout the years, were for naught. After I had the kids, I practically starved myself to get back to my old weight. I tried very hard, but failed. He once told me that if I'd just lose a few more pounds, I'd look really good. And now, several pounds and years later, I'm supposed to believe it when he "admires" my body? Right. I'm not stupid.
I really don't care or believe what he says, so if I want dessert, I eat it. If I want an appetizer, I eat it. And you know what? I've gained 20 pounds since I found his porn. And I don't care what he thinks. So, his use of the two-dimensional floozies has absolutely poisoned the marriage bed. I'm living for me and it feels good.
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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claire
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Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 10:56 pm |
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Last edited on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 03:49 am by claire
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 04:20 am |
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Hello All,
I looked around to see if I could locate anything currently available on-line associated with the guy named "Donny" who I mentioned I remembered (in my previous post).
After reading and listening to what Donny Pauling has to say, I think maybe the best thing for curing me of my despicable addiction if/when the desire resurfaces is to go to the page at the link I'll provide.
In fact, I set before myself now this plan of action for any time I might be tempted. As soon as I feel any amount of temptation whatsoever, I will return and reread the link provided below (and/or a preserved downloaded copy in case the link ever changes).
Prior to reading the information at the linked page, I downloaded and listened to an MP3 audio of a pastor's introduction and then Donny giving his testimony. I think that has very significantly helped me -- interestingly enough, the part I think that seemed to be of most benefit to me was how he decided to trust God even though he did not receive any help from God as far as understanding the Biblical passages which were such a problem to him.
I'm pretty sure a long time ago I mentioned a experience in which I believed God was truly and directly speaking to me and during this experience I had happen to my body something very similar to what Donny mentions happened to him. That confirmed to me that I should continue in more ernest the fight against porn through which QuikTrip (a convenience store chain) said led to their decision to stop selling any adult magazines in all of their stores across four states (several hundred stores I think - at least now anyway and they still don't sell any porn). Yes, I know isn't it interesting that even after that fight in which it seemed God was with me throughout the process, I still turned back to using the very stuff God used me to keep out of so many locations. The editor of Penthouse magazine said something which I think somehow I was not prepared to deal with in the spiritual area (during the TV program where we were taking to each other - taking opposite sides as he whined about his magazines being pulled from so many stores. I need to seek God's help to get past some of that - I still have the full program on a VHS tape which a friend from work gave me ... I guess I'll go back and go through each of his remarks again and take them to God in prayer humbly asking for help about how I should process them appropriately.
Sorry for running all that above into one big paragraph - but for me anyway - it's all so connected I don't want to split it.
Got to go ....
Here is the link to THE page ...
http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/about/
Find the link to the audio on above linked page - click on the text:
DOWNLOAD THIS MP3: Donny Pauling speaking at Pocono Community Church in Pocono, Pennsylvania – February 28, 2010 – Pastor David Crosby introduces me at the 12 minute mark.
...
and very powerful on below page is:
"The Supply and Demand Circle of Porn"
http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/category/porn-stories/
-Dennis
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 12:29 pm |
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Dear Claire,
I couldn't bring it up during my 23 year marriage because my husband kept it hidden from me. When I found it, the volcano erupted.
One of the things my husband tried to pull was "I didn't tell you because you just wouldn't understand and wouldn't approve."
NO KIDDING. As if that justified his behavior.
When you say: "I am terrified to bring it up, he gets mad or starts his usual talk of how I cant understand, how I am a horrible wife,
how I dont meet his needs, how this is no big deal, how we are too different and how we just arent a good fit etc. All of these things turn me into a panicky, desperate person." PLEASE realize, these are lies, self-delusions, used to justify his behavior and to control you. DO NOT ALLOW IT.
You don't need this. No one needs this. This will not stop until you figuratively smack him upside the head with a 2 x 4. You need to shake him from his stupor. You are trying to live a Proverbs 31 life with an arrested adolescent; a self-centered little boy. You are very different. He's a child, you're not. If you have not already read this, please read Mike Genung's writing on the subject: http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/healingforwives
And I found this especially helpful: http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/sexaddictioneffects
You know in your heart what you have to do. God's timing is perfect. He will show you how and when to act. Please do not be afraid to listen to HIS voice. Step out on faith.......
Praying for you.......
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 02:16 pm |
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Dennis,
I've been thinking about your situation and I've come up with a question or two that are intended to bring Satan's lies into sharp relief. I came up with these before I read Donny's blog, but we seem to be on the same wavelength:
If soft-core porn is art, you wouldn't object to your wife, daughters, or granddaughters posing for it, right?
If soft-core porn is art and a means by which to worship the Creator and His creation, you wouldn't mind the fact that other men were viewing pictures of their naked bodies while pleasuring themselves, right?
There's no two ways about it. Every woman who appears in porn is someone's daughter and granddaughter. If you would not want someone else oogling your daughter or granddaughter, you cannot rationalize oogling someone else's daughter or granddaughter.
I realize those questions are provocative, but they are intended to help you see Satan's lies with absolute clarity.
I am praying for you........
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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claire
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Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 05:32 pm |
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Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:12 am by claire
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Fri Mar 12th, 2010 07:25 pm |
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Hi all,
I need to correct a goof-up I made yesterday.
I didn't get the "which link points to which kind of help" information completely correct. Actually the page at the second link is where you find the text/link upon which you may right-click and select "save ..." in order to download any of the MP3 Audio files which have proved to be so helpful to me personally.
-Dennis
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sat Mar 13th, 2010 05:19 am |
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claire wrote:
...
Ah but to have the kind of love that you lay down your very life for your friends. Lay down your very life, your sins, because you care enough.
... (Bold emphasis mine)
Claire,
For most of my life I've been aware the scripture teaches me as a husband to "Lay down your very life" for my wife. However, I think You may be the first person who has helped me see the connection between laying down my life and laying down my sin.
I want to genuinely thank you for sharing your insight.
(I wrote most of what's below primarily for my benefit I guess - actually quite a bit of it I touched on in the earlier thread. I've tried to write something I can read later to help me remember why I'm experiencing this wonderful new hope today. It's really cool to see there's another side (kind of like a flip-flop approach) to the power of the very "Lay down your Life" teaching which has been so helpful to me in dealing with other sins!)
For most of my life I think I was too focused on considering the God-sized example where Jesus allows himself to be killed (even by crucifixion) in order for us to have a way to escape the judgment we deserve. Up to a little less than 2 years ago as far as our marriage goes, I pretty much only considered that teaching like this: "If there ever comes an opportunity for me to willingly give up my life (i.e. meaning specifically "die") in order to help my wife - at that time I will have my opportunity to follow this excellent teaching". Needless to say, I was not expecting each day, and looking for an opportunity to follow that particular teaching!
Like I mentioned in one of the posts in the earlier thread, in some important ways, for well over a year now I've experienced a wonderful time of victory in relation to some of my other biggest sins.
I started acting differently once I learned (in effect) about what I'll call a branch off the root "lay down your life" teaching. Now, you've helped me grab hold of hope that maybe I can get free from this porn sin also, in effect by using another branch which also draws power from the same root.
Branch 1: Do what I know will help her.
When she told me she would have to leave me if I couldn't stop pushing her toward a complete loss of her dignity and/or sanity is when I began trying out my new "interpretation" (or maybe I could say, testing the strength of the first branch).
I guess she felt she might be able to hold out one more year, because she said if in the same month next year - she could not enjoy being in the same room, any room, with me ... then that would signal I just would not get back how I was earlier, and with me being the same - she could not likely be of much help to our children or anyone else. (That's basically the way I remember what I'll call her "ultimatum" - and I respected her for saying firmly she just didn't believe she should let me bring her down to as low a level as I had sunk).
At that point, my actions took a radical U-turn toward the right direction! Almost overnight, I began actually DOING THINGS every day (usually many times a day) in connection with my new way of interpreting what ACTIONS the teaching "lay down your life" should lead me to.
I decided to act as if I would be acting in sync with the "lay down my life" root teaching demonstrated by Jesus when I do relatively little things every day, including (but not limited to) washing the dishes each time they need it, and picking up the messes made by anyone in the family (not just my own), and not drawing attention to myself for doing and of these kinds of things that I didn't normally do before.
So, in a nutshell, rather than continuing to wait around for a time when I would have an opportunity to physically die for her ... I started actually doing things which sprung out of the perspective that I am more interested in helping her enjoy her life then ME. So I started doing a variety of things for her during time that earlier, I would have used for doing things for specifically aimed at my enjoyment.
Along with the fact that I finally started taking enough and the right kinds of medicine to help with my mental problems - it's clear that my acting based on this new approach to how to "lay down my life" - have been the most important things in the process of my ongoing recovery from my three big sins she mentioned were hurting her the most. I was daily making her feel inadequate as I was:
1) Challenging her faith,
2) Criticizing her,
3) Manipulating her with Bible texts that made her continually feel guilty.
Claire, thanks for waking me up to this other "branch" (as I consider it) also growing from the root: "lay down my life" teaching.
Branch 2. Stop doing what I know will hurt her.
(I guess this new insight is basically the flip-flop of "do what I know will help her".)
For me, it helps if I also factor in what apostle Paul said to the effect: "It's a sin if you do something you know causes your brother to sin". Of course I'm sure in place of "brother" I could also substitute "sister" and my wife as well.
My involvement with porn has so hurt my wife that she has been in a more precarious position and most likely an easier target for Satan's forces which want to lead her into sin. I'd say it's almost certain I've caused her to sin in areas where she would not have been likely to, if I had stayed "sober". Actually, even if there were proof beyond a shadow of a doubt that the way I've used porn in and of itself was or is not technically "sin" (and of course that's not possible since it clearly is sin), still that whole type of thing wouldn't mean anything anyway ... since my porn involvement is sinful even just based on the fact it leads my wife toward sin. When I continue in porn, something like this I'm sure is very tempting for her: "If you keep doing that, then I can do this, and you can't give men any flack, because I sure don't need to be accountable to your opinions, since we both know what you do, etc..."
In consideration of the connection you mentioned about how my stopping to sin can be associated with "laying down my life", I really do have new hope especially since I have seen how powerful the companion branch from that same root teaching has already proved to be in our lives, we are not jerked around so much by my being so controlled by those sins. I'm believing God will help me get victory over this porn sin too!
With this understanding of the scripture, things are more clear cut, even for me (one of the worst skeptics, who has turned true believer at least via some victories).
She hurts when I do porn, so I'm quitting.
-Dennis
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sat Mar 13th, 2010 06:00 am |
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The pages at the links I provided earlier post contain a whole bunch of helpful info (actually, almost information overload) ... however each of the posts within the big page point a smaller pages containing only what's directly related to that "post". I want to point out one particular one since it relates so directly to a lot of what we have been talking about in this thread.
Both of these resources speak about letters from women who have been hurt by porn - one woman was hurt after having been a nude model and the other is the women who was married to the photographer and one who marketed the nude photos.
Instead of trying to explain it - I recommend either hearing or reading Donny words (the photographer/marketer turned repentant Christian) but even more importantly the words of the women.
The title of the rather short readable page (i.e. short, in comparison to my posts <wink/smile> :
If Porn's a Problem In Your Married Life Read This
at this link: http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/2009/09/19/if-porns-a-problem-in-your-married-life-read-this/
Actually I recommend even more - especially for men - you listen to Donny talking for (I think to mostly men)in a church in LA. The link to the audio/MP3 file is on the same "main page" I pointed to earlier:
http://www.donnypauling.com/blog/about/
It's close to the top but you can also locate it by "Find"ing the text: "I’m speaking at Journey Church in Los Angeles". I think there's also a video, but I have limited bandwidth, so I just downloaded the audio version. This is different than the one I mentioned in one of my previous posts. I have been helped by listening to BOTH.
-- I've been helped by hearing what's shared by Donny - when added to what I've been reading here, I'm hoping the effect of both with be like an elixir which will be potent enough to wake me from my sin-induced stupor. I post the links for several reasons - but I guess mainly in case some guy like me might happen to be reading this thread - if so, he might also benefit from the bitter burning dose of insider knowledge about various aspects relating to how the porn industry effects a variety of different kinds of people.
Oh also - in case anyone is not familiar with downloading and then listening to a file having the extension '.MP3', usually after you download it (by right-clicking and picking "save ..." - then if you double-click on it (from explorer or wherever), an application like Windows Media Player for instance should open and you should start hearing it through your computer's speakers. In addition, I often transfer such audio/mp3 files to either my portable MP3 player or my smartphone, so I can listen to it while I'm doing outdoor chores and/or fishing, driving, etc.)
Sorry if the above explanation wasn't needed - I just want to do whatever I can to make it so anyone who may want to hear Donny talking will know how to.
-DennisLast edited on Sat Mar 13th, 2010 06:17 am by dennis1soil
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sat Mar 13th, 2010 09:08 pm |
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Congratulations, Dennis!
You've made the right choice. I hope that you will share this with your wife. I hope that you will ask her to join you in this fight. I hope that you will perservere through the difficult times and celebrate the victories.
My prayer for you.........
"...Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkeness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore, take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one..." --Ephesians 6:10-16
My best, Devastated Wife
____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
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claire
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Posted: Sun Mar 14th, 2010 12:32 am |
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I am so glad Dennis, that you felt that my insight was helpful to you. Truly, I pray that
this is a turning point for you and your dear wife who sits and waits to be number one
with you in every way. I wish that I could say that if I said the same thing to my
husband that he would come to the same conclusion. I fear that it will either take an
act of God changing his heart or perhaps it wont change at all. I am trying to be the best
wife that I can be, even in my depression and sadness. I am really trying but he
doesnt even act as though it is making any difference in his life. His porn is his comfort,
more than me, because I dont understand. He wants a whole new life, new business, new
location, new house etc. We have many reasons not to leave where we are but he
does not really care. He is on his own admission, selfish and self centered and wants
what he wants. I try not to rock his boat, take care of our home and children and love
him regardless. But I am starting to hurt more and more. I did not know of this addiction,
I was not thinking he was doing any of this. I found it and in the confrontation I was made
to fee like the bad wife, the one he would choose porn over. So I feel like I am laying
my life down for him and it is not even making a difference. What in the world, will I
end up doing? So, how about some insight from you, am I just wasting my time on a man
who doesnt even want me? Claire
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sun Mar 14th, 2010 03:54 am |
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Claire,
My heart hurts when I hear of your situation. My heart hurts not only for you, but also I think I might be able to identify with some of your husband's pain. As I have pointed out in some another post, I can identify with several of the things that may be bothering him about where he is life - about 2 years ago I think I would have really been shaking my head saying something like "Yeah, that's how I feel". From the relatively little I know about him however, it seems he's deeper into porn than I have ever been. Also, I don't think I've been as much trouble to my wife, but then one of the things associated with my bipolar mental imbalance (or whatever the correct name for it is) is that I have completely forgotten a lot of stuff that happened before I started taking the mix of medicines which now help me so much.
Since you asked me to say something in regard to your situation (OK, maybe not along the radical lines where I'm about to go!), I'll throw out a couple of ideas - each has strange and maybe even somewhat dangerous aspects (I don't think you have said anything about violent possibilities).
I think it's important for you to factor in the warning I'll type below. (I'm serious, even if it doesn't sound like it)
-- Warning: These ideas may very well be worth less than you have paid for them. (I don't even have a 4-year college degree in any field, so anything I say about medications should be checked out very carefully).
....
OK, in this post, I'm just pretty much going blurt out both radical ideas, this way if they sound too preposterous - there's no need for proceeding any further.
1) Because of several things I've noticed in your posts (like sometimes he's really nice and other times he doesn't make much sense, and other times he's not nice at all), I think it's possible - that like me, he may suffer from some "issues" in how his brain chemistry effects the way he perceives the whole world (not just you and/or the kids, etc...). If he is like me in this regard, through taking the appropriate medications, I think it's very possible he might feel a whole lot better about himself and more importantly, also find it's easier to be kind to you. Especially - if he really does want to be good to you - when he is in one of his "nice" periods. Because it could be that the times when he is easier to get along with, are when his brain chemistry is more the way it could be most of the time if it's being stabilized by medication. Note the word "COULD" - like I say, I'm not a medical person.
The way my "chemical imbalance" effects can be summarized by this phrase:
"When I'm nice I'm very nice, but when I mad I'm horrid".
Fortunately for me and more importantly my wife and kids, the medicine I take helps me stay pretty much the same most of the time, whereas before my poor family didn't know from day to day if I would act like a saint or a werewolf (well, I guess on full moons they pretty much already knew!).
I encourage you to maybe find a discussion board(s) similar to this one that's primarily setup for people who suffer from bipolar problems and/or their spouses. You might recognize similarities - like we sometimes do here.
I think you may have mentioned he takes some kind of medicines now. Each person is different - if he's like me - any medicine that effects brain chemistry could make the way he relates to other people WORSE - or BETTER - or not effect much of anything.
Doctors prescribed several different Brain related medicines for me before we found what really helps. Just because two guys "symptoms" are almost identical, that doesn't necessarily mean the same mix of medicines will effect them both the same way. So if he decides he wants to try some medications - he might find help pretty quickly or it could take quite a while to keep trying different kinds of medicines.
2) It might do him good to read through this thread and maybe some others here. Yes, including this post - everything - your posts - my posts, all posts - and the links I've mentioned recently (everything - no censorship).
Also, I am hereby volunteering to "talk" with him by exchanging emails - especially if he reads the stuff here first - it would give him background about where I come from. I suspect if he were to read through some threads here first, that might (and I say "might") make it more likely that he would be willing to "talk" with me personally.
CAVEAT: Please read below though before actually inviting him to start reading here!
I think reading this stuff here would especially be good for him, if like me, he's taking appropriate medications to keep his brain chemistry correct and stable through time. Of course I'm a assuming my guess (and that's all it is, "my guess") is correct, the he really can experience new ability to treat other people more kindly and he can feel much better about being alive.
Of course who knows how he might react. To tell you the truth, one of the reasons I started posting here this time, is because I was concerned when I noticed you had erased some of your posts, that perhaps he had starting reading here and reacted in some way that could have been really a problem for you (like I said I don't know if he can be violent ... these days that happens too often, my youngest daughter works at a battered women's shelter so maybe I'm more aware that the average guy).
====================
-DennisLast edited on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 03:55 am by dennis1soil
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sun Mar 14th, 2010 04:00 am |
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Devastated Wife:
Thanks for your vote of confidence and your prayer.
I appreciate both.
-- I spent a bunch of time this afternoon writing this - and then I saw Claire's post above and decided responding to it is more important ... I just about decided not to post this after all. But now I've mentioned to Claire maybe her husband could read everything here, and I'm thinking a post like this might be good for someone like him to read --- I can't exactly put into words why I think that ... maybe it's just a guy thing (gone bad?).
I'm going to type from the heart. What I say will be direct, unequivocal, meant only to inform and elighten, and explain the true feelings of a sex addict.
Because of the USERID you chose, perhaps I should talk about the main subject of this post only in broad generic terms. However, since you mentioned you have developed "thick skin", and since providing specifics can be helpful for clarity ... I've decided in this post to be as direct with you as you are with me.
I don't want my words to seem harsh or uncaring, and I apologize in advance if they seem that way.
Considering the volatility of the subject matter we discuss here, I suppose some friction is not all that surprising - especially when a a bipolar guy with mental problems like myself is in the mix.
I don't usually stay around these parts very long, since I become rather compulsive and I don't do much work during the span of time I'm interacting here. This week for instance I used up three vacation days and factoring in my company's 1 non-paid weekday cost cutting measure - I worked only Monday while most of the rest of the time I was engrossed in trying to find what I think Claire indeed has helped me find!
Thanks again Claire!
I'm mainly hoping the time I spent today putting this post together will raise awareness of the difference between what a person has said verses what we may only assume about the person and/or his or her family. Most likely I have ventured into the area of assumption before, and I'm hoping if I come back here for another week sometime, I'll be careful enough not to repeat.
I tried to write something like a reader's digest condensed version which would sum up just about everything I'm trying to say in this big post in a couple of sentences in order to avoid the details. But I just don't have the skills reminiscent of the example Tim M. provided me in the other thread, when he thought I had spent too much time quibbling about phrases, etc...
For the most part I think the interchange between abused people and people like me who have abused has worked pretty well - however it seems almost like like trying to walk through a minefield. Probably I'm mainly trying to reveal examples of dangerous areas in hopes of avoiding casualties.
...
Devastated Wife:
I realize most of the time you write words directly to me, you're sharing insights learned through the years you've lived with a different man who is like me in that he is a sex addict. I appreciate a significant majority of what you have said to me. You've helped me gain valuable insight about ways I've hurt my wife, and probably because of your posts I understand more about pain she has suffered at my hands, so to speak.
I try to be honest about my failures and sins in very personal areas - this of course can place me in a somewhat "vulnerable" position.
When I come here, I understand I'll likely be embarrassed in regard to specific sins which I choose to be honest and open enough to reveal. Since we speak about very personal things here, I try to be prepared for questioning in specific areas directly related to what I have said.
However I have not always been as prepared to be ready to respond to assumptions made about me in areas about which I have not revealed anything.
For instance, though I have said there have been times when I was guilty of trying to use scripture passages in an attempt to manipulate my wife to have sex with me more frequently (when compared with her usual preference), I have not said anything about whether I have been negligent, or whether I have been faithful as far as whether I meet her needs in other than sex where a husband should sacrifice his own comfort and/or "good feelings" in order to help his wife.
The use of the word "only" in the sentence below seems to me to be a good example of assuming more than has been "shared":
>>> "Using your wife for sex and only for sex or "comfort" as you put it is treating her like a concubine"
As well as the use of the phrase "It's clear to me":
>>>"It's clear to me that you've only been looking at one facet. Try looking at the others and seeing her as a whole person."
Given the purpose of this site, I speak in my posts mostly regarding sexuality.
I don't intend to be saying (in this post) something along the line "It's clear to me" about anything you do other than what I know of you based on what you have typed here. However, I am saying "it looks to me like" assumptions have been made without supporting evidence.
>>>..."maybe it might be better to meet HER NEEDS so that she wants to be intimate with you"
It looks like there are two assumptions showing up in this sentence.
"Looks to me like - Assumption 1": I don't meet my wife's needs (in any area? or just in the non-sexual areas I haven't talked much about).
"Looks to me like- Assumption 2": My wife doesn't want to be intimate with me.
The only thing I can remember saying which may have prompted such an assumption was concerning a comment she made in a counseling session over 3 years ago. I didn't feel the need to bring readers up to date and say since the turning point, when I started doing the dishes, picking up messes, and not complaining and/or belittling her any more ... who knows ... perhaps things along those lines could have changed?
My posts are long enough as it is without me feeling I need to describe even more comprehensively everything I do as a husband in order to be reduce the likelihood of someone writing something, in regard to an area I forgot to cover, which they assume must be applicable to how I act since some other guy they know acts that way in area of his husbandly responsibilities which I forgot to cover when explaining about myself.
From my perspective at this time anyway, it's not hard to imagine guys who might be a bit more "quiet" than I - who might decide not to reveal things about themselves (which might have been helpful) after reading stuff similar to what I've emphasized in the quote boxes below.
Dennis,
I'm going to type from the heart. What I say will be direct, unequivocal, meant only to inform and elighten, and explain the true feelings of the wife of a sex addict. If it offends, I'm sorry, but I will not apologize for the feelings or the truth in my words.
Even before I knew he was a sex addict, I felt used. He never reached out to me unless he wanted sex. He never talked with me. ...
...
I am a woman, his wife, the mother of his children, a CPA and an Attorney. I have needs and wants of my own. Those include conversation. I have a brain. I am so much more than a receptacle. I suspect your wife is a lot more than a receptacle. What comes through your post is "ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, MY NEEDS, MY COMFORT, ME, ME, ME, ME."
Using your wife for sex and only for sex or "comfort" as you put it is treating her like a concubine. I hope the "Marriage on the Rock" CD's will help you understand and meet your wife's needs. (bold and red emphasis mine)
Dennis,
...
Instead of MANIPULATING your wife into what you want, maybe it might be better to meet HER NEEDS so that she wants to be intimate with you?
Instead of pursuing her from a self-centered, self-obsessed point of view, try meeting HER NEEDS for a change. Do you see the difference? Stop proceeding from a self-obsessed, sex-obsessed point of view. Your wife is a diamond with many facets. It's clear to me that you've only been looking at one facet. Try looking at the others and seeing her as a whole person.
... (bold and red emphasis mine)
- OK, I've said what I felt needed to be said. As I mentioned above I may become pretty scarce around here come next work week, so if anyone wants to discuss any of this tonight and while not in church tomorrow is the best time for me.
-DennisLast edited on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 04:07 am by dennis1soil
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