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TM2
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Posted: Sun Mar 14th, 2010 05:38 am |
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It seems to me that one of the things that is making this thread contentious is that it's about two very separate things - what addicts tell themselves, and what addicts do.
Both those things are important. It has certainly made a difference to my wife, for instance, to hear from me that I find her attractive, that she and the women I viewed in porn always lived in separate parts of my mind, that there wasn't competition between them in my mind, that I hated my own addictive side, that at one time I was hurting so badly from my continued addiction that I was considering suicide. Her willingness to understanding these perceptions has made reconciliation between us much easier.
But reconciliation between us has also depended on my willingness to understand her perceptions of my actions, or, to put it more bluntly, what I was actually doing. It would be hard for us to move forward if my wife didn't have some appreciation of how things felt to me. It would be impossible for us to move forward, though, if I couldn't appreciate the objective character of my actions as perceived by my wife.
I wasn't trying to be abusive, but in fact I abused.
I wasn't meaning to reject my wife, but in fact I rejected.
I didn't think I was preferring porn to her, but in fact I preferred.
In my mind I loved; but love is action, not feelings; and in action, I did not love.
If we are to stay married, then it's helpful for my wife to understand how things seemed to me. But if I am to be someone worth being married to, then it's essential that I understand and accept what I have in fact done, not superficially agreeing in order to be agreeable but really acknowledging them in deep humility.
In this conversation, some of us are talking about feelings of the addict and perceptions of those feelings. Others of us are talking about actions of the addict and perceptions of those actions. Both those things are real and important, but we're getting them confused. I wonder if some of our discussion - "Addicts do xyz, and must therefore be feeling xyz." "No. I was feeling abc. How can you accuse me of xyz?" - might not be clarified if we accepted the simple truth that what addicts feel and what addicts do are very often not the same thing at all? My actions were objectively hurtful, whether or not they were accompanied by a conscious, rational decision to hurt. I doubt I'm unique.
Tim M.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Sun Mar 14th, 2010 03:37 pm |
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TM2 wrote:
...
... My actions were objectively hurtful, whether or not they were accompanied by a conscious, rational decision to hurt. I doubt I'm unique. ...
Amen.
-Dennis
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Sun Mar 14th, 2010 04:48 pm |
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Dennis,
I see self-delusion and denial throughout your posts. I've lived through the delusions, denials, the frank blame that he attempted to place on me, and most damaging, the lies. I've developed a thick skin and a sixth sense. I simply bring the self-delusion and denial front and center. I hope that helps you to face reality.
My best, Devastated Wife
And I should add: It is not surprising that it causes you significant discomfort and that you would seek to avoid it.
Last edited on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 05:53 pm by Devastated Wife
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claire
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Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 08:14 pm |
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I think it is important to realize the mindsets that come with usage. I dont think my
husband purposely tries to hurt me, abuse me in using his porn but it does. I think
it has become a passage to find comfort and perhaps he is just bored. I think it gives
him a dimension in his life where he is severely lacking. Not in sex but something to fill
the loneliness. The loneliness comes from the isolation, the isolation comes from the
deep self depreciation. He feels that he is not a good person, he has talked himself into
believing that he is worthless and that he does not like anybody so he stays separate from
most everyone but his family. Even in that, he stays to himself often from us. He has
created a world for himself that includes self sex and has all the participants that he
wants, and they dont object or refuse him anything.
So, as I sit and contemplate all of this, I am hurt and disgusted but I also have some
compassion and pain for him. If he is being strong held by the enemy here, if this
is truly and addiction, if the images that overtake his mind and body are taking him
in bondage, then what the heck am I to do? I can pray, cast out demons, beg, be the
best wife I can be, love in spite of but will it be enough? I think he doesnt really want
to hurt me but has said that on some level he is glad it is hurting me, NICE. I think this
has been such a part of his life for so long that he is so so hardened to the reality of
the sin and the affects. I am affected but am still not sure how. I know this is a form
of adultery, unfaithfulness, but what else? And why do I say what else? How stupid that
sounds. I am not sure what to do still. Wait for God to convict, wait for God to reach his
hurting heart? As I grow, will he desire that too? He says I should find someone else,
someone who will be what I need, someone who is better. Is that what I should do?
So, he thinks his own world doesnt hurt anyone, it is his. Well, I dont think that is true.
I rambled, wow, I am good at that. So, replies are so wanted here...Claire
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 09:24 pm |
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Dear Claire,
It is important to reallize there is a drug induced stupor that accompanies the use of porn. The drugs are naturally occuring neurotransmitters, but they are drugs nonetheless....and our husbands have learned to self-administer them to medicate the pain.
It's good to have compassion for the addict. Compassion to me means reversing roles and trying to provide that which I would need if I was the addict.
An addict may want to be molly-coddled and enabled so that they can continue in their addiction unchallenged, but they need to be shown some really tough love. That love has to be oriented toward shaking them from their stupor and forcing them into treatment. That means calling them on every lie. That means showing them all the self-deceptions. That means insisting that you live in a porn free house. That means insisting that they choose you over the porn. That means insisting that they seek treatment as a condition of remaining in the house.
In many respects, I think it is harder on the wife who takes the tough love stance than it is for the woman who is acquiescent and simply turns a blind eye to it. For me, there was only one clear path....the path of tough love. I think that is what God requires of us. "In sickness and in health" for me means taking an active role in returning my husband to mental and physical health.........whatever it takes.
My best, Devastated Wife
Last edited on Mon Mar 15th, 2010 09:33 pm by Devastated Wife
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claire
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Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 09:51 pm |
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Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:17 am by claire
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TM2
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Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 10:39 pm |
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I think that sympathy for the addict is well and good. Understanding and lovingkindness and forgiveness are important for your own well being if for nothing else.
I also think that tolerating continuing abuse is not part of understanding and forgiveness. It's possible to understand the causes of rage and to sympathize with the pain of the person raging and also to refuse to be the victim of the abuse.
Imagine that you and your family are confronted by a starving grizzly bear. A loving person will, of course, sympathize with the bear's plight. It's suffering greatly. Perhaps its suffering is even brought on indirectly by the actions of humans - destroying habitat, competing for prey, whatever. One cannot blame the bear for desiring to eat one's family and oneself.
One also cannot permit the bear to eat one's family and oneself.
In the same way, it's possible to say to an addict, I understand your pain. I sympathize with your struggles and your fears. I will support and help you as you face those fears and get better. But I cannot allow you to continue to do damage to others.
This gives the addict a choice. And having given the addict a choice, one can enforce the choice by either supporting the addict if the addict chooses to end the abuse or allowing the addict to end the relationship if the addict chooses to continue to abuse.
That may not be a solution you're ready to embrace, but it at least suggests one path combining understanding and forgiveness and strong protection of oneself and others. There are probably other such paths.
Tim M.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Mon Mar 15th, 2010 10:43 pm |
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"...One cannot blame the bear for desiring to eat one's family and oneself.
One also cannot permit the bear to eat one's family and oneself.
In the same way, it's possible to say to an addict, I understand your pain. I sympathize with your struggles and your fears. I will support and help you as you face those fears and get better. But I cannot allow you to continue to do damage to others...."
AMEN. That is so very well said that it bears repetition.........Thank you, Tim for your continued insight.
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dennis1soil
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 12:48 am |
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Hi Claire,
In my last post to you, I forgot about this thread from a long time ago:
"Sex Addiction <-> Brain Neurochemical Imbalance (related?)"
and here's a link to it: http://www.blazinggrace.org/forums/forum20/1133.html
I just came across it and noticed I started around 4 months following my first big "Ahh ... Now, I get it!" moment.
In an earlier post in this thread I referred metaphorically to the scripturally inspired understanding associated with that first "now I get it" moment as a branch off the root tree of Jesus' "lay down your life" teaching.
Like I mentioned earlier, your words are helping me with sort of a companion teaching which I referred to as a second branch growing from the same root tree.
Now after a bit more time, I think its safe to refer to this second "branch" as a second "Ahh ... Now, I get it!" moment ... and I am really happy to say I it feeling like this one will help in the realization of similar (if not greater positive) results!
dennis1soil wrote:
claire wrote:
...
Ah but to have the kind of love that you lay down your very life for your friends. Lay down your very life, your sins, because you care enough.
... (Bold emphasis mine)
Claire,
For most of my life I've been aware the scripture teaches me as a husband to "Lay down your very life" for my wife. However, I think You may be the first person who has helped me see the connection between laying down my life and laying down my sin.
I want to genuinely thank you for sharing your insight.
...
With this understanding of the scripture, things are more clear cut, even for me (one of the worst skeptics, who has turned true believer at least via some victories).
She hurts when I do porn, so I'm quitting.
-Dennis (Bold blue and red emphasizing some of my own words)
Since I checked the date on that Brain Chemical post - I see clearer just how much time elapsed between my two big "Now I get it!" moments. I've been saying the first was around a year and a half back, but now I see it has really been closer to 3 years.
As can be seen in the next old thread I point to below, I really felt a strong need to find some scripture ... something which would provide, either by direct interpretation (or even some not so direct interpretation) a reason for me to feel b]certain God has communicated clearly that I must stop looking at those photos because in so doing my actions are 100 per cent certifiably, and categorically SIN.
I didn't really believe deeply that I had come across such until a couple of days ago after reading your words about what I call the second branch from the very root with the power I was able to use in getting past the first hurdle.
Branch number 2 is what I was looking for! The answer to one of my main questions in that thread.
(I'm working on a different metaphorical way to try to get a mental picture of the battles I think are being fought in the spiritual world for our family. For now anyway I suppose I can just picture using the two branches as weapons. I'll have to work on the other mind picture, it's not yet "ready for prime time").
Below is the link to the other old thread - this one started closer to 2 years back. If anyone is interested in reading through it, I think you may feel it provides a pretty good case in point example of "self delusion and denial" (to use some of Devastated Wife's words).
The title is: Bible Women: The only one their husband enjoyed seeing?
and here's the link: http://blazinggrace.org/forums/forum21/1337.html
A note for anyone in regard to use of the provocative material in that thread. It's very well suited for use in the process of modifying and/or extending any present evaluation of my condition. Please bare in mind, I wrote those words over two years ago - and they do not necessarily reflect my current opinions.
As usual, my words in this thread present me in a negative light, so I'm a bit hesitant to post a link to it - but I do, primarily for anyone who may be looking for even more about the mind workings of a guy effected by the use of porn. And the better reason for posting the link, is the excellent sacrificial comments of helpers/posters. Relative newcomers will be treated to some of the abundant treasures which may still be located in the old threads, Tim M. and Truthseeker et al... have been providing great help to desperate guys like me for several years!
(... God has gifted some members of His body with almost unimaginably massive doses of compassionate patience!)
-Dennis
(P.S. I haven't read through everything in those big threads recently - just enough to remember how I was struggling with whether the Bible really does explicitly encourage foundational ideas which are undeniably common in the minds of many women .... if you comment on something, I may have even forgotten I said it - until I go read it again -- I was really in states of anguish during some of those times).Last edited on Tue Mar 16th, 2010 01:02 am by dennis1soil
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claire
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 01:23 am |
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Help me Tim! Ok am I just really ignorant or am I in denial? Ok, my question is: Is the very
use of the porn abuse to me? Yes, the occasional tearing me down is, I know this. Not
necessarily raging but his increased tone and then swearing and then letting me know
how I do not please him, how I do not come near his expectations, in some things
ofcourse. Just his mere unhappiness with many different things about me is so upsetting
to me. So, again i ask, is the porn abuse to me?
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TM2
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 03:54 am |
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Claire,
First, a remark on something other than your direct question:
Occasional tearing you down? Your earlier posts make it sound like you spend an awful lot of your life afraid and trying to avoid and manage the anger. I don't think there's a problem only when we're yelling. I think there is a problem every time people are feeling bad about our yelling and protecting themselves from it. I wonder if the word "occasional" isn't an unexamined bit of minimizing and enabling.
Is the porn use itself abusive? I think that's something you need to decide for yourself, possibly with the help of people who know you better than we can and who have professional perspectives we lack. Here's an answer I would give for myself, though:
For reasons I do not understand, my wife is very self-conscious and doubtful about herself physically. I think she's extraordinarily attractive, but she doesn't see this. Every time I look at porn, I'm therefore hitting her where she feels weakest, and I'm reinforcing her sense of inferiority and self-doubt. That causes real and acute pain. If I loved hr and could just quit using the porn, I ought therefore to do so. Not to do so is to do something I know hurts her a lot. So yes, I think a good case can be made that my use of porn is itself abuse.
Now, I haven't used porn explicitly in order to hurt her. (Or have I? Sometimes I certainly have. This is a complicated question.) Also, I struggled mightily for many years to quit, completely without success, so that I was in some sense a victim as well as a perpetrator. But by my actions, again and again, I repeatedly did hurt her.
There's another thing, too. For me, it isn't possible to use porn without isolating and withdrawing and becoming angry. The porn is necessarily connected with other abusive behaviors. So for me, your question is somewhat academic. I can't use porn without abusing in other ways.
That's my answer for me and for my family. Your answer may be different. Perhaps your husband can continue to use porn without isolating and becoming angry. Perhaps you do not find the porn use itself threatening and painful. Those are questions you have to answer.
I read women who say that porn is not an issue for them, or even that they and their husbands enjoy it together in moderation. Those people may exist. I don't understand them, though, just as my alcoholic friends don't understand how a couple might drink together in moderation and not have it be a problem. Seemingly these things can happen, but as an addict, they make no sense to me.
That's my answer, not yours; but my answer is the only answer I can give. For me, the porn itself has to end, and continuing to use is continuing to abuse. I have no opinion on the question of whether this answer is universal.
It would certainly be possible, if the porn itself doesn't trouble you, to insist that the anger end and that you be assured that the porn is inaccessible to other members of the family, but not to insist that the porn use itself end. That's not what I would do, but I think it's logically consistent.
Tim M.
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claire
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 04:37 am |
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Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:19 am by claire
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claire
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 04:50 am |
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Dennis,
It blesses my heart to think that I have said something that has helped you to see
things more clearly. I have sought help in trying to understand what I am dealing
with and have received so much care from the 4 of you, my new friends. I just didnt
think I would be offering anything at this point. I am happy if I have helped you to see
something that you have missed. I am grateful that you are headed in the right direction
as to truly love somebody means to give what you have and be willing to let God give
through you even more.
My heart is broken and confused. I am so tired of pain and problems. I have never had
such a time, so many problems in my life and this is just topping it all off. It explains alot
as I have wondered why he is gone so much at night, hidden away in his rooms. I know
he does many other things with his time, but to know that this is one of the activities
that takes him away and leaves me alone about every night makes me want to just
disappear. When I found the evidence there were over 100 hits with the most sick
disgusting things I have ever seen. This is a Christian home! Oh my gosh, the pain is
so deep and my heart so sick. I hate it all. And yet, I sit here, not knowing what to do.
Yes, I hear the advice of my new friend DW, and I hear you and your trek towards
giving it all up, I hear Tim and his gently words and his concern for me and the words
I hear at times that devastate me. I hear Truthseeker and her story is vivid. I am still
in shock I think. I knew nothing, and now as I read and read your posts, and read
on line the truth about the sin, that I am not over reacting or being dramatic with what
I know, with all that is going on, I wait. I am waiting and learning and praying. I must
say it is nice to be able to share, to lay out the feelings that so haunt me now. I cant
say anything yet to my husband, for as before, I am sure he would just get upset and
leave. I need more time, more information, more strength and direction. I am considering
all that I know, the depths of this problem as I am sure it is not just a lust issue. He is
a sick and hurting man. So, another long rambling. Dennis, you and I ramble well. Thank you all.
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Devastated Wife
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Posted: Tue Mar 16th, 2010 02:48 pm |
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Dear Claire,
You're not over reacting or being dramatic. Marsha Means and Barbara Steffens have likened the trauma the wives of sex addicts experience to that of war. They go so far as to suggest that we suffer from post traumatic stress disorder....or PTSD.
Here's a link to their latest book: http://www.amazon.com/Your-Sexually-Addicted-Spouse-Partners/dp/0882823094
I haven't finished it yet, but it does seem to provide some helpful insight.
My best, Devastated Wife
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My best, Devastated Wife
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