Dennis' (lack of) recovery ...
 Moderated by: truthseeker, bil4913  
 New Topic   Reply   Print 
AuthorPost
dennis1soil
Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 11th, 2007
Location: Missouri USA
Posts: 133
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Mon Mar 8th, 2010 05:05 pm
 Quote  Reply 
For foundational underpinnings of this discussion ... you may refer to the thread (also located in this General Discussion area)

entitled: "Can Porn Create Anger/Disappointment? subtitled: "Always so negative" at this link:

http://www.blazinggrace.org/forums/forum21/1864-3.html

(where I believe Claire shows excellent insight by starting the thread with her question about a correlation between the two).

I apologize for typing way too many words in that thread (hijacking it?). Probably I should not have said anything since I don't think Claire ever asked specifically for the point of view of someone who might relate with some of her husband's actions which have and are causing her much pain (i.e. from a guy like me who has inflicted similar pain to my wife).

I may not be able to take the time to post very much here - perhaps until this weekend (but ... then again ... maybe I could find time that perhaps otherwise I might have carved out to look at porn, and instead write things here in hopes of finding even more help to put toward changing my "(lack of) recovery" status to just "in recovery".

...

Up here in the initial post of this thread I want to publicly say "Thank You" to Claire for being so patient with my inappropriate behavior in her thread.

Likewise, I say "Thank You" to Devastated Wife for hanging in there and reading most of my posts and for being a necessary and integral part of setting the stage so Tim would make the two incredibly excellent posts in the 3rd page of that thread (i.e. his two most recent - prior to the time of this post - in that thread).

And directly to Tim: Man, you are a breath of fresh air in a desert where people like you are hard to find. I am really, really happy you have continued to invest so much of your valuable time and energy here at this board. Thank You.

And a big Thank You to TruthSeeker, who as always helps each of us do just that: Seek the Truth.

OK, so if anyone has more to say about my ongoing "issues", I'm listening.

-Dennis
truthseeker
Administrator


Joined: Tue May 16th, 2006
Location: New Jersey USA
Posts: 1322
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 03:46 am
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Dennis,

Have you ever considered whether there might be a connection between addiction and idolatry?  Perhaps placing the creation, or a portion thereof, the female form, above its Creator?

It appears from the outline that we will be discussing this concept in a Bible study this week.  I'll let you know if anything interesting surfaces.

TruthSeeker
claire
Member
 

Joined: Sat Feb 20th, 2010
Location:  
Posts: 68
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 04:36 am
 Quote  Reply 

Last edited on Sun Mar 14th, 2010 03:46 am by claire
dennis1soil
Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 11th, 2007
Location: Missouri USA
Posts: 133
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 05:18 pm
 Quote  Reply 
{The company I work for has put us all on a four day work week to reduce expenses ... so I can use more time today for posting here.}

claire wrote:
...I am lost and scared and sickened and aware even more of my own weaknesses as i am finding that perhaps i am not taking care of myself.
I am fearful that I may have lost me, in the mix of trying to hold on to, fix and tolerate behavior that is maybe more unfair and abusive than i know. (bold emphasis mine)

Claire,

First, Thanks for being so kind to me.

Here is something which I think is both true and maybe good for both you and especially your husband to keep in the forefront of your minds during this season in your marriage (it's not original with me, I picked up the insight from the Bible).

The things you do to keep yourself healthy are also acts of love toward your husband.

The reason I say that is because husband and wife are regarded by God as a single entity. If you allow yourself to become less, in so doing your husband's worth is diminished as well.

The old saying "she's my better half" is actually very, very true in my situation.

Now, if my better half is not as emotionally healthy as she could be, what does that say about me?

I need to go back and reread the part of scripture Devastated Wife put into a post in the other thread ... if my memory is right, I think she may have included a reference by the apostle paul to confirming this real truth.

I was originally thinking about where Jesus talks about a husband and wife becoming one flesh and what God joined together let not man put asunder, etc... However, given that other passage (from Corinthians I think), some of what the apostle Paul said is even more direct something along the lines of - how a man hurts himself also when he is hurting his wife. I'd assume that when I hurt her, I may be doing even more damage to myself (guess we'll all know when it's all sorted out at the judgment).

{Now I'm moving a little bit from what I think is clearly taught in the Bible more into my own opinions}

I think it's good for me to look at our marriage relationship as having put into the background my individual identity and not given me a new primary identity characterized as "We' (instead of "Me"). What I do to maintain the health of We says a lot about my less significant identity as Me.

In the other thread I said I was trying to transition from considering "my sexuality" in comparison with "her sexuality" to the perspective of OUR sexuality. When I became married my whole identity was effected, but somehow my conscious brain "never got the memo" so to speak.

Perhaps that's one of the reasons why my wife experiences so much pain knowing I have any interaction with porn whatsoever ... maybe, even though she personally has nothing to do with it, she still feels "dirty" because Our sexuality is being tarnished. (Hey maybe spending time at this site is good therapy for me ... I'm seeing new lights go on even as I type).

Well, I guess I've already said the main thing I wanted to say (and have ended up with a big beautiful surprise - maybe a clearer understanding why she feels so much pain knowing even half of Us is involved with porn).

[btw, Now, in the light of this new light bulb - I remember something Devastated Wife said to the effect something like "I will no longer live with porn in my marriage" --- wow, I hope I haven't been plagiarizing - sorry about that D.W. - I just couldn't see it 'til the light just now came on.]

To summarize:

One way I think a wife can approach a husband who acts toward her as I have toward my wife - especially if he cares about what Jesus and the Bible have to say ... Is something along these lines:

"Through holding on to my dignity as I insist you treat me with respect, and as I take measures to keep you at a distance if/when you continue to mistreat me - I am actually improving who you are - because half of who you are, is who I am."

Claire - I don't think you have lost "you" - the very fact you are here trying to understand better - not to mention even been willing to keep reading long and rambling posts by a guy with similar character flaws to your husband ... It's clear to me there is still a "you" there - and she's a good one too.

-Dennis

Last edited on Tue Mar 9th, 2010 05:23 pm by dennis1soil
claire
Member
 

Joined: Sat Feb 20th, 2010
Location:  
Posts: 68
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 06:40 pm
 Quote  Reply 

Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:10 am by claire
dennis1soil
Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 11th, 2007
Location: Missouri USA
Posts: 133
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 07:10 pm
 Quote  Reply 
truthseeker wrote:
Hi Dennis,

Have you ever considered whether there might be a connection between addiction and idolatry? Perhaps placing the creation, or a portion thereof, the female form, above its Creator?

It appears from the outline that we will be discussing this concept in a Bible study this week. I'll let you know if anything interesting surfaces.

TruthSeeker


Thanks, I'm interested in hearing about what you are being taught - as long as you think its good stuff, but the skeptical side of me is thinking I've most likely already heard what most Sunday School curriculum offers. Like I said earlier though "I'm Listening".

As far as the idea of Idolizing the creature by valuing that form greater than it's Creator ... my first take is "I don't think so".

I think part of what makes up "worship" is considering that God has done well. I'll try to be much more brief than I probably normally would be, but here's a quick analogy of the kind of pathways my messed up mind has traveled.

I think of God as an artist.

Artists generally like people to see their best works.

(From strictly a visual perspective), I think the female form is one of God's best works.

The legitimate provision for me to "see" this work is exclusively the specific form of my wife.

I may be allowed to view her form for let's say .. probably not more than 3 hours per week. Whereas I like God's best graphic-form work so much that I would rather get the privilege of viewing it (ideally her, my wife preferably) maybe as often as an hour or so each day.

The images of the female form are available to be viewed 24 hours per day every day of the year.

==== Therein lies the problem ... however I think maybe you have helped me because there could be another "idol" ... see below


If I were to worship a creature to the exclusion of the Creator - I think the logical pick would be my wife (as a whole), since she not only has "the form" going for her, but all kinds of other great attributes such as a history of mutual involvement as we have shared our lives together.

But maybe I've been fooling myself about the real reason I like those photos so much, It's probably only one of the many components present in how my wife can comfort me ... She gives me much more than only a feeling, while that's the only thing they offer.

Maybe I'm not really so much attracted to "beauty" but more distinctly :

"It's the feeling, stupid"

I could be dancing around the answer to why my wife hasn't seemed to be all that excited about the sexual comfort she gives me .... when, perhaps she senses I'm ignoring her/our better qualities -- could it make her mad when I'm not more interested in those?

I am resolved...

A healthy thing I'm going to try more and more is to change my opinion of what constitutes God's greatest artistic achievement. Away from something that requires eyes to enjoy and toward the qualities which I can be comforted by even if I didn't have eyes or ears or nose and/or any ability to physically "feel" ... even so, I could be comforted by her even-better-than-physical qualities such as kindness, honesty, integrity, and especially her "love and mercy toward her husband the sinner".

Thanks for helping me re-evaluate Truthseeker ... As I look at myself through the mirror offered by Devastated Wife... I'm seeing myself worship a "feeling" provoked by the good form I was mistaking for God's best artistic work.

I'll try to shift my worship a couple of steps higher ... past the female form, past my wife, to the One who made both.

...

Again Truthseeker, I've caught you in the very act of helping me Seek Truth.

-Dennis

P.S.
(Thanks to you also for suffering through my pamphlet sized posts!)

Last edited on Tue Mar 9th, 2010 07:20 pm by dennis1soil
Devastated Wife
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jul 17th, 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 555
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 07:48 pm
 Quote  Reply 
claire wrote: I dont know how many times my husband has told me that we are NOT one.
"...And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place.  The the rib which the Lord God had taken from man He made into woman, and He brought her to the man.  And Adam said: "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; She shall be called woman, because she was taken out of Man."  Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh...."  Genesis 2:21-24

 

"...So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself.  For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church...."  Ephesians 5:28-29

 

Last edited on Tue Mar 9th, 2010 07:52 pm by Devastated Wife



____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
Devastated Wife
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jul 17th, 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 555
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 08:09 pm
 Quote  Reply 

 "...I could be dancing around the answer to why my wife hasn't seemed to be all that excited about the sexual comfort she gives me .... when, perhaps she senses I'm ignoring her/our better qualities -- could it make her mad when I'm not more interested in those?..."

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Halleleujah!  An EPIPHANY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dennis,  I'd like to suggest or recommend a book/cd called "Marriage on the Rock" by Jimmy Evans.  It is basically the "Mars-Venus" book redone from a Biblical perspective.  Jimmy Evans uses humor and stories from his own marriage to examine and explain a man's needs and a woman's needs, how they differ, how we need to work to meet each others needs....how the differing needs were part of God's plan for our lives as husband and wife.  I do not get a cut for promoting this, but I did find it extremely helpful....and miracle of miracles.........so did my husband. 

http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-Rock-Jimmy-Evans/dp/5559795577

http://www.amazon.com/Marriage-Rock-Gods-Design-Dream/dp/0964743507/ref=pd_sim_b_7


My best,  Devastated Wife



____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
TM2
Member
 

Joined: Thu Jan 8th, 2009
Location: Rural Midwest, USA
Posts: 473
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Tue Mar 9th, 2010 09:39 pm
 Quote  Reply 
A quick comment:

I work in a scientific field, but I think of myself as an artist in what I do. Art is really important to me.

Describing humans as art objects makes me very queasy, though. Say it. Art objects.

Women aren't objects. They aren't there for me, the subject, the consumer of the artistry, to enjoy. They are human beings, daughters of the most high God. Any analysis that starts with women as objects is, IMHO, wrong from the very start.

There may be artistry in the creation of human beings, but I think it's on a whole different level. I adore the art of Cézanne or Monet or van Gogh in part because it allows me to see in a new way the things those artists represent: the south of France, or a sunrise, or a field of wheat. Their art is images of villages or dawn or wheat.

But women are images and likenesses of God. If I'm appreciating them as art, then it better be because I'm seeing through them to the prototype of those images, to God.

That's not what I do when I look at porn.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

Tim M.
dennis1soil
Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 11th, 2007
Location: Missouri USA
Posts: 133
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 04:59 am
 Quote  Reply 
Thanks Tim,

Respectfully, I might have to say in this case yes, our mileages do vary.

Now - it's very possible I may completely misunderstood you. I wonder because I don't understand how the word "prototype" fits into the basic train of thought.

For instance, I don't (when looking at images of nude female forms) see through them to God, appearing like the first and/or ideal female form. If I am seeing something or someone "through them" so to speak, it would more likely be the form of Eve since I think He created her form at least in part, to be enjoyed by Adam. I see myself as one of many sons of Adam (and also as a son of "the second Adam", Christ).

For the lion's share of the (way too much) time I have spent in looking at such photos, as I have said, I'm not aware of much of anything happening in my mind <ok, please restrain those quips ladies!>. However, of the times when I have noticed (and/or allowed) anything apparently going on in my mind, it has been not so much something I would describe as a thought, rather more like appreciation, appreciation for God's creative genius (similar, though not as strong as the appreciation I feel when I see my wife's body).

Now, I understand the incredible paradox here because the way those representations of the female form were captured on photographic images was of course clearly saturated by sin, and of course God hates such sin. You know how I seem to almost have a penchant for conundrums -- I certainly don't believe a centerfold type photo shoot is a way God wants people to capture a visually two dimensional representation of one of his masterpiece manyfold dimensional forms - and even worse, then for husbands to use that captured image as a way to find comfort and "the feeling" when their wife's form is not available. However, I have "used" such to enjoy albeit a very thin slice of his handiwork. I'm not saying that's good, I'm just explaining what I think has happened.

I'm pretty sure I didn't use the phrase "art object", rather my purpose was to use the concept of "a work of art". I was trying to use the analogy of God as the artist and I guess the female form (in general that is - not the form of a specific woman) would be the "object" which He has brought into existence through His work. However, now that I think about it, I prefer the word "pattern" to associate with the "female form".

But to stick with the term object, I have used the Form as the "object of my desire" -- however, I don't think I've ever regarded/used either the model or the God who made her as an "object".

Your post reminds me of a "hot button" which triggers a strong reaction in me. I personally don't necessarily have a problem if someone uses me as an object or refers to me in some connotations as "an object". To tell the truth, the reason I have chosen "Dennis1SOIL" as my USERID relates to this.

In "Dennis1SOIL", the "Dennis" part is pretty obvious I assume <smile>, the number "1" reminds me of my roots since I can trace my lineage back to the very first man created by God on this planet, and "SOIL" reminds me of the object God used when He was forming my great, great, ... grandfather Adam. Those letters "SOIL" also serve as an acronym for "Signs Of Intelligent Life" which reminds me of my belief that we people are signs God exists (e.g. we are like artistic works of God).

I hope you don't mind, but I want to write some about why the human being as an object is a "hot button" that awakens a major "issue" I have. Please remember, if/when you read my next post, my zeal about this subject is not directed toward you or anything in your post - I think I understand where you're coming from. I guess I've just been waiting for a time to get some of this out in the open and so maybe I'll "use" your words sort of as a springboard to assist me up on my lofty soapbox (yet again).

As always, Tim, I very much appreciate when you (or anyone) brings to my attention anything I've said which either just doesn't seem right or you just want to discuss. So far anyway I think your track record about recognizing things that aren't quite right is much better than mine.

...

To be continued ....

-Dennis

Last edited on Wed Mar 10th, 2010 05:01 am by dennis1soil
TM2
Member
 

Joined: Thu Jan 8th, 2009
Location: Rural Midwest, USA
Posts: 473
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 12:17 pm
 Quote  Reply 
I used the word "prototype" because it's a term used in the Orthodox Christian analysis of art in the form of icons. St. Basil the Great teaches that we do not worship icons, but rather, that honor paid to icons passes on the the prototype of the icon - to Christ or to his Mother or to whatever saint is depicted in the image. On the Sunday of Orthodoxy, the first Sunday of Great Lent, we sing a verse recalling this teaching. I guess that's a rather Greek usage of the word prototype that may not instantly connect to an English speaker who hasn't grown up being reminded each year of this teaching. "Original thing depicted in the image" is what St. Basil means. Pardon me for picking automatically what seemed like the natural word in my universe.

That my use of pornography has something to do with appreciation of the female form as art is something I'd believe better if I spent equal amounts of time obsessively viewing images of other beautiful creations of God like men, birds, cats, and sunsets or if I had turned to porn only after regretfully exhausting all the more beautiful depictions of the human form in classical art. That doesn't describe me; so for me, to try to connect my use of porn to artistic sensibilities would be an utterly unpersuasive act of deluded and self-defensive rationalization. If for you there is a significant artistic motivation in the use of porn, then we're so different in that regard that I doubt either of us will be able to understand the other at all.

Cheers anyway,

Tim M.
Devastated Wife
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jul 17th, 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 555
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 01:29 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dear Tim,

You nailed it when you said:  "...to try to connect my use of porn to artistic sensibilities would be an utterly unpersuasive act of deluded and self-defensive rationalization...."  You said precisely what I was thinking but was hesitant to post.  The self-delusion is amazing. 

Pornography is not art.  It is a staged act of abuse and a violation of many Biblical commandments.

My best,  Devastated Wife



____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
Devastated Wife
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jul 17th, 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 555
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 02:03 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dennis,

I'd like to suggest that you read about the truth behind "the art."

http://www.blazinggrace.org/cms/bg/truthbehindfantasyporn

 

My best,  Devastated Wife



____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
dennis1soil
Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 11th, 2007
Location: Missouri USA
Posts: 133
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 04:36 pm
 Quote  Reply 
(I'm posting this, as the continuation of my most recent post before reading any of the new posts which were logged between these two connected ones. I wrote most of this last night and I want to get all my thoughts out before seeing how the first half have effected people. I probably will not be able to find time to read anything until maybe tonight after work)

====================

Maybe this post should be considered as a "rant", so I give this preface. Usually I shouldn't do the "rant" thing here, however since I've been finding some new insights lately as I have put in writing what goes on in my perhaps unusual mind (e.g. as I'm revealing my ignorance) ... I'll continue.

(Let the buyer beware though, what lurks below could, and most likely will be worth much less than what your are paying for it.)

I very much understand other men's mileage will likely differ greatly (and I'm almost certain women's mileage shouldn't even be compared).

...

To be honest, I guess I've simply never understood what I consider to be the "apparent disdain" of referring to someone as an "object" - to me that seems to smack too much of gnostic duality, where the physical is bad and only non-physical things can be good.

I am both body and soul and I consider both parts of me to be good. If someone treats me as an object that doesn't necessarily mean I will be offended - it depends on the context - we live in a world of objects and many are very helpful, I like to be a help to people and often it's the "object" part of me (i.e. my body) which makes it possible for me to be helpful.

For instance, when my wife asks if I will carry sacks of feed (for the cow) from the back of the pickup to the barn, she is in effect using me as an object. Still, I don't mind, even though, in that particular instance she's only interested in "using" my body to get something she wants (done).

Now I suppose IF the only kind of help my wife asked me for - only involved me using my body - and she never acted as if she even noticed other characteristics about who I am ... well, maybe in that case I would start to resent her always using me as an "object". However I don't think that's likely to happen soon (and it hasn't happened yet).

I really am serious about the main thing I'm trying to get across in this post (e.g. I'm not trying to do some tricks with words in a vain attempt to be "clever" - even I realize that wouldn't be appropriate).

...

The other thread included in it's title the words "Anger" and "Disappointment" ... now I'm going to try to explain "Astonishment" has sometimes engulfed me.

Biblically speaking both men and women are supposed to help each other. The Bible specifically uses a term like "help-meet" (in KJV translation anyway) for wives, and I get the impression for husbands, words like "provider", "protector" (and probably a phrase like: "one who helps protect the purity of his wife" like Christ makes his bride, the Church, spotlessly pure).

OK, so as "provider" for my wife I will likely need to use my body. I was about to write "No problem", but given the words God said when Adam and Eve were banned from the garden, maybe I won't say that after all. In order to be a "protector" again my body is involved. Now in order to help my wife by heling in the process of keeping her pure (in mind I'll assume for now) of course I've really goofed up by looking at any porn, because she might decide to try it herself and end up with a mind that's not nearly as pure as it was previously and thaks to my complete desecration of the charge given by God to me as her husband.

But it seems, from my admittedly very tainted perspective, that many Christian women would not be about to say "No Problem" after a sentence saying something to the effect of .. "as "help-meet" she will be able to use her body ...". I understand now that if that's all the "help" her husband wants from her she will likely feel he is in effect insulting her by not receiving and recognizing the help she provides him via many of the other equally honorable components of who she is ... for instance, the demonstration of her love shown through many hours of doing the dishes and picking up his clothes, etc... (just a couple of many, many possible examples).

I'm pretty sure you've suspected for quite a while now where I'm heading with this - and here it is -- one way to help her husband does involve the use of her physical body (dare I say "object"?) in allowing him to experience "comfort" and "the feeling" (like I used those two words in an earlier post).


Christian husbands can add more hurt to their wife (as I have) by bringing up that infamous scripture passage which apparently suggests frequent sex in marriage can be a way of "help"ing a spouse (of either sex) to be less likely to get into trouble seeking (I assume) either the "comfort" or "the feeling" elsewhere.

What's so wrong about a wife helping her husband through using her body as an object which is widely known to be an excellent tool in providing comfort and a sexually charged feeling to her husband?

I certainly understand the superior nature of a sexual experience characterized both by comfort and "the feeling" aspects - available for both husband and wife when experience each other as "whole persons" so our union becomes much more comprehensive as our minds and souls are more primarily coming together (in addition to our bodies). I would be crazy if I were to say I don't prefer that type of experience, however just because that is so good, doesn't mean there's something bad about an experience which doesn't require as much time and... well, full person immersion, so to speak.

I know some wives can apparently feel something to the effect: "I feel like a prostitute". But to just use reason alone (or at least the twisted "reason" which goes on in my brain) I could see how that would be the case if her husband never did anything for her in other areas of their life - but if he is not treating her in any disrespect ways and is a significant help to her even at the expense of other things he could be "getting" out of life, Why feel that way? I don't think men change their entire life for occasional "object oriented" sexual episodes with a prostitute.

I think God wants the sexual interaction of married people to be playful and light-hearted in some instances. God made our bodies from objectively inanimate soil. Certainly we are much more than the sum total of the physical ingredients making up our bodies. That's why full person sex (if I can call it that) is so much better in many ways. In the Old Testament there is a passage where one of the patriarchs is said to be "sporting" with his wife in a field somewhere. I don't remember reading in that passage where God was displeased because the husband was too interested in his wife's physical side and was treating her as an object.

I never could (and still don't) understand why my wife doesn't always take as the compliment which I believe it is - the fact that I prefer looking at her objective physical body even more than I prefer looking at any other albeit photographic image of beautiful female forms.

It appears to me (I suppose primarily from watching our admittedly-messed up TV and magazine world) that women want a man to appreciate their figure, and in general how they appear. So I assume most women want to receive attention from their husband including attention of a sexual nature.

When a wife doesn't appreciate being enjoyed it seems almost counter human nature to me. Probably I'm really messed up here as I have been in so many other ways, but I get the impression that in a perfect world it would be normal for a wife to genuinely enjoy being enjoyed by her husband.

If my guess is correct, one reason wives in this world may differ from the "in a perfect world" (as I imagine it <smile>;) is due to the societal disdain found in the phrase: "I'm being used as an object! (and a sexual one at that)". I think it's interesting how most everyone gets a grin from the typical male response like: "hey, feel free to use me as a sex object as often as possible please!". However, I don't get why that doesn't seem to be considered "normal" for a wife who genuinely wants to be a helpmeet for her husband?

.... Devastated Wife: I just ordered both the items you mentioned and also one called "A Mind Set Free" by the same author (given how my mind gets me in almost as much trouble as another part of my anatomy) ... below is a link to the other resource:

http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Set-Free-Jimmy-Evans/dp/1931585164/ref=pd_rhf_p_t_1

I'm hoping those resources (and probably replies to this post) will help un-bewilder me ... probably we'll watch the DVDs together and maybe that will help make it easier for us to talk more about these subjects ... we sort of shut down talking for a couple of years because we'd usually both end up really exasperated... (duh, imagine that!)

When we would come out of a discussion about these kinds of things (and of course I haven't mentioned the many "rant oriented" things on her agenda!) ... Similarly to how obvious it is to most women who have just now read this post about how I sooo just don't get it! ... well, yep you guessed it - it also seemed to me that she sooo just didn't get it either! <wincing-type-of-grin>

Whew... I guess I just have a hard time shutting up.


-Dennis
claire
Member
 

Joined: Sat Feb 20th, 2010
Location:  
Posts: 68
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 04:36 pm
 Quote  Reply 

Last edited on Thu Mar 25th, 2010 03:13 am by claire
Devastated Wife
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jul 17th, 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 555
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 05:42 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Very well said, Claire.  Very well indeed.  You're clearly finding your voice, and your strength.  Keep it up!!!

 

My best,  Devastated Wife



____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
Devastated Wife
Member
 

Joined: Fri Jul 17th, 2009
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 555
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 06:03 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dennis,

I'm going to type from the heart.  What I say will be direct, unequivocal, meant only to inform and elighten, and explain the true feelings of the wife of a sex addict.  If it offends, I'm sorry, but I will not apologize for the feelings or the truth in my words.

Even before I knew he was a sex addict, I felt used.  He never reached out to me unless he wanted sex.  He never talked with me.  He never "saw" me unless he wanted sex.  I was only useful to him when he wanted sex.  I was nothing more to him than a receptacle for that which he needed to be rid of.  After I found his stash, the FILTH, the utter disgusting FILTH I found on his computer, it all made sense.  He spent decades dodging and making me feel as if I was the one who had a problem and all along, my feelings, my sixth sense...............was right.  I resent the decades that were taken from me under false pretenses.   A fraud was committed against me for which there is no recourse.

I am a woman, his wife, the mother of his children, a CPA and an Attorney.  I have needs and wants of my own.  Those include conversation.  I have a brain.  I am so much more than a receptacle.  I suspect your wife is a lot more than a receptacle.  What comes through your post is "ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, MY NEEDS, MY COMFORT, ME, ME, ME, ME."  

Using your wife for sex and only for sex or "comfort" as you put it is treating her like a concubine. I hope the "Marriage on the Rock" CD's will help you understand and meet your wife's needs. 



____________________
My best, Devastated Wife
truthseeker
Administrator


Joined: Tue May 16th, 2006
Location: New Jersey USA
Posts: 1322
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 06:10 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Hi Dennis,
 
We both seem to enjoy analogies, but I like picking them apart, too.  If your neighbor's wife asked you to carry something heavy for her, I doubt if your wife would mind, unless she believed the neighbor's husband to be lazy, or perhaps felt that something she wanted you to do for her at the moment should take precedence.  If, however, your neighbor's wife wanted to utilize your physical body for ANY type of sexual gratification, or even just spent a bit too long admiring your muscles, I dare say your wife would take umbrage with that, and should.  I'm sure that you could not imagine going to a site or opening a magazine and finding your specific wife's image there.  Would that not send a dagger through your heart?  Each of those women you have seen over the years is someone's daughter, possibly a wife and/or mother, or at least potentially some man's future wife.
 
The passage you were referring to is Genesis 26:8, where Isaac has told the king that Rebekah is his sister, but is then seen from a window with her.  The NIV uses the word caressing, translated sporting in the KJV.  I agree that in a HEALTHY marriage, intimacy will encompass a broad range of expression, but the vast majority of people visiting BG are sadly not in that situation--that's why they're here.  If they were enjoying marriage as God intended it, they would be too busy doing so to read the heartache here, unless they have been here, done this, and choose to remain in gratitude for what God has restored to them, to try and help others find that same joy.
 
You are correct that our warped media is a very bad source of evaluating what women want.  It has, in fact, in my opinion, very much distorted even women's understanding of what they need, and contributed to women being just as likely to detach sexual intimacy from marriage as men.  In many instances, forget the classic ring in the nose, I think some women have decided to capitalize on men's powerful, innate drive, placing the ring elsewhere, and sadly, many men are falling for it hook, line and sinker.
 
Yes, I go out of my way to be attractive to my husband.  When I discovered his use of pornography, I was crushed to think that those efforts were for naught--that anything positive he had said about my appearance must have been lies to keep me sexually available for him.  Should some other male notice my efforts for my husband and like what he sees, that is completely incidental and is of no significance to me.  Should some man indicate that he finds me ugly as a pig, that is also of no significance to me.  My husband's opinion is of utmost importance to me, but only balanced with clear appreciation of me as a whole person.
 
TruthSeeker
TM2
Member
 

Joined: Thu Jan 8th, 2009
Location: Rural Midwest, USA
Posts: 473
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Wed Mar 10th, 2010 07:29 pm
 Quote  Reply 
Dennis,

I don't quite understand why you feel you need to defend the notion that sexual attraction and activity within marriage is OK. Hardly anyone doubts that. That's not at issue. What's at issue is the "artistic" appreciation of the female form outside marriage.

Of course my wife is both a physical and mental and emotional and spiritual being. Of course we should share our love in all those dimensions.

But for me, the women I view in porn are pure objects. I don't know them as people. I know nothing of their feelings, their thoughts, their spiritual lives. They work hard at showing me a facade they think I want to see and at hiding their real selves from me. I don't love them. I don't even know them. I just lust for them. (And if I do love them, do attempt to know them and to meet them, then I'm clearly not in the realm of art. I'm in the realm of adultery.)

That my wife has a physical body is not a problem. That I have deserted her to spend time instead with thousands of women who are only physical objects to me is. None of the arguments for sex within marriage touches this situation.

I'm guessing this as somebody on the other side of the fence, but here's part of why I think objectification is an issue for our spouses:

Wives of addicts see us withdraw from them, from our kids, from our responsibilities, from our lives in order to pursue the images we seek. The images are only objects to us, and yet we show again and again by our actions that we prefer those objects to the real loving people whom God has placed in our lives. Each act of appreciation of one of those "artworks" is an act of betrayal of our spouses. That appreciation therefore means one thing to them - rejection of them and of their love for another. And it's not even that we leave them for another woman. We leave them for something without a heart, without a mind, without a soul - for a pure piece of paper. Is there a more complete rejection than saying that all of someone's mind, heart and soul doesn't matter, that all that matters to us is the physical? We don't say that. We don't feel it. But seen from outside, it is what we are doing.

Now does it begin to be clear why the wife of an addict might resent being objectified? They see us preferring pure bodies to them as human beings, setting at naught everything outside the physical. We show them their minds and hearts and souls don't matter to us. To then say, ah, but you, too, are beautiful, is to put them in competition with others where there should be no competition. It's to move them yet a step further from the realm of the human to the realm of pure images. It's to invite them to be collaborators in the whole process that has negated the value of their minds and hearts and souls. By comparing them with 2-dimensional images, we invite them to become 2-dimensional themselves, to acquiesce in their own devaluation.

Are we surprised if that doesn't feel good?

Finally, I don't think the issue here is that women think men don't get it and that men think women don't get it. I think this is a discussion among humans who agree or disagree independent of their gender.

Just how it seems to me, of course.
dennis1soil
Member
 

Joined: Mon Jun 11th, 2007
Location: Missouri USA
Posts: 133
Status:  Offline
Mana: 
  Posted: Thu Mar 11th, 2010 03:09 am
 Quote  Reply 
Wow, where do I begin?

As I read through (just now) the various most recent replies, I noticed several paragraphs coming from various people, that have caught my eye especially.

My intent at this time is to reply in separate posts - trying to get to each eventually - but it'll likely take me several days.

I'll start here:

truthseeker wrote:
...
Yes, I go out of my way to be attractive to my husband. When I discovered his use of pornography, I was crushed to think that those efforts were for naught--that anything positive he had said about my appearance must have been lies to keep me sexually available for him.
...(bold emphasis mine)

I want to break the phrase I emphasized into two parts and say something about each.

TruthSeeker, I know you seek Truth and find it more often than most (me, for instance). However I'm sad you may have missed it this time - and what a time to miss it - just where so much personal pain is at stake. I don't understand why you didn't and/or don't believe your husband was being truthful with you. Of course I'm saddened by what you have said.

(I apologize many, many fold if any of my posts might have caused you to feel more certainly that your husband must have been lying. Remember, I have "mental problems", so the kind of "logic" I use is not necessarily as messed up as some other men's.)

After you discovered his use of pornography, and spoke with him about it - did he actually tell you that anything positive he had said previously was actually a lie? If not, how can you be certain about his real attitude?

And, even if he did tell you something along those lines ... when I was initially confronted I was soo wanting to get past that uncomfortable time, I ended up agreeing with much of what my wife was so certain about basically just out of exasperation. I think I remember trying to hold to the truth in regard to something almost exactly like what you mentioned, but while in her initial state of shock, she would hear nothing of it. She was so convinced she knew the complete truth about what happened in my mind, any of my intentions, and basically anything I may have ever said to her while I was using porn.

When I gave up on many points, I think she must have interpreted that as my agreement with what she was saying about me. I'm happy that after a while she seemed more willing to consider ... maybe ... I might have believed what I had said about how she appeared to me. Then after a much longer while it appears she seems to have ... possibly ... come to the opinion that I was telling her the truth (at least, about me thinking she was attractive).

Truthseeker, Obviously I don't know your husband, but I assume he could very well have been telling the truth all along. Based on personal experience, I'm know it's possible. There is precedent.

Here's something which helps me understand why there is precedent:

I love my wife's appearance and always have - that's the case whether she weighs more than the NHO guidelines say is appropriate for someone in her demographic, or if in all ways she is "fit as a fiddle". Throughout all our marriage, when I've looked at her I guess the fact that I love here must have acted sort of like sunglasses, by that I mean it's like before her image reaches my eyes it has been filtered by my love.

Case in point: In the last year or so my wife has been eating the weight-watchers way. I think she recently told me she's lost something like 40 to 45 pounds. She's happy about it, and I'm happy for her, not just because she now looks more like the societal ideal for her height and age. The greatest benefit I have noticed is that she obviously feels better about herself and maybe that's why she seems to walk through life being more cheerful and positive. Now, I thought she was very attractive even before she lost the first pound, and I feel she is very attractive now. I guess that's what prompted to me to think about the sunglasses analogy. Through the eyes of some impartial person they would likely say she is much more attractive now - Of course I can understand why that can be said (judging by other's standards) but as far as I'm concerned, it seems like something comparable to love-tinted glasses has caused me to see her attractiveness as very similar in both cases. I realize this is not what you were talking about, but I think the basic idea is very similar - i.e. how I gauge the attractiveness of a woman depends on whether I love the woman I'm looking at.

OK now that I've beat that to death, I want to move on to the next part of the phrase :

>> "... to keep me sexually available for him."

It's been my experience that telling my wife she looks beautiful has not appeared to increase the likelihood of that intended result (oh, don't I wish). Perhaps for your marriage mileage has varied. Now, based on what I see in the media I would think that would be a very good way to get my wife in the mood, so to speak. But like I say, for me, it hasn't been productive. I'm guessing, the reason may have something to do with my previous "ranting" post.

So, at least in my case, I would not use that particular technique in hopes of keeping my wife available (even if I were willing to lie, which I haven't been). Trust me, I've tried just about anything I could come up with that seemed like it might work to that end ... but once something clearly doesn't work, I try something else.

-Dennis

Last edited on Thu Mar 11th, 2010 03:28 am by dennis1soil

 Current time is 04:19 am		Page:    1  2  3  Next Page Last Page